I don’t get it. If we gear up for war, we still devlop the bomb independently circa 1945. Drop one on Hiroshima and one on Nuremberg. Done.
What if the Nazis had developped the nuclear bomb before the Americans?
I definitely agree with dhanson on this one. Once Germany took over France, the US wasn’t going to play along with Hitler. By Pearl Harbor, the US was pouring munitions to Britain, making it de facto at war with Germany. Hitler probably declared war on the US because he realized that there was no way to keep them out of the war. As DHR pointed out, Japan had reached the limit of its expansion capabilities with the US still controlling the Pacific. Ever since the takeover of Manchuria, the US had led an embargo against Japan; Japan was placed in situation in which they could either slow down their industrialization or else go to war to get the oil and other products necessary for industrialization. They chose war.
I think, however, that the basic premise that the Japanese and Germans were warlike people bent on taking over the world is fundamentally flawed. Japan saw a bunch of other countries taking colonies, and tried to take some for itself. Then all the countries with colonies (except Germany and Italy, which were pretty far behind in the colony race) got mad at Japan and started interfering with Japan. Japan saw war as the only way to avoid second class status. Germany was interested in taking back what had been “stolen” after WWI: Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and finally Poland. I think that Hitler didn’t particularly want to fight Britain, but once Britain started “interfering” with German expansion, he felt war was justified. Besides which, it was Britain that declared war, not Germany. As for the attack on the USSR, that was motivated by ideological differences more than territorial desires. I hope you don’t mistake me for Pat Buchanan, but I think that there really was a good chance that the US could have achieved a peaceful resolution to its differences with Germany and Japan. I don’t think they should have, but they could have.
The fact remains that put together, Japan and Germany were no match for the Allies. Their only hope was winning the A-bomb race, and even that would have been doubtful. Although it’s conceivable that the US would not develop the Bomb, (from what I’ve heard, Einstein had to really push for Roosevelt to start the Manhattan project) the Bomb in the hands of Japan or Germany would not have been incredibly useful. First of all, A-bombs were much less powerful then. For instance, I’ve read that Dresdan, which was bombed by conventional bombs, was demolished even more completely than either Nagasaki or Hiroshima. Secondly, A-bombs were much more expensive back then. If neither of the A-bombs had caused the Japanese surrender, the US would have had to go back to conventional warfare; they didn’t have any more A-bombs. Thirdly, A-bombs were much more difficult to deliver back then. They were bulkier and airplanes could handle much less weight. I really don’t think that a bomber, loaded with an A-bomb, could make it from Japan or Germany to the US. They could have shipped it, but first they would have to defeat the US Navy, and then destroy the US Air Force. Not exactly plausible.
-Ryan
" ‘Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity. Their content did not matter.’ " -Kurt Vonnegut, * Breakfast of Champions *
Momotaro:
<QUOTE>What if the Nazis had developped the nuclear bomb before the Americans?</QUOTE>
I’m not sure how many “what ifs” this thread can tolerate. We had the assembled brainpower and resources and, in Truman, a leader willing to deploy the thing. The Nazis didn’t. And even w/out the bomb, you cannot overemphasize how our geography, economy/industrial base and history gave us a decisive long-term advantage over both nations.
Or the will of the American people. People I’ve talked to who lived through the war talk about this beautiful unity, that everyone was in it for the long haul and no sacrifice was too great. To exploit their resources, both Germany and Japan relied on the subjugated
peoples within their sphere. Not an efficient long-term strategy.
No one’s mentioned it, but this was the subject of the book Fatherland by Robert Harris, a very cool novel. Skip the TV adaptation w/ Rutger Hauer…they mess up the end.
A man, a plan, a canal: GatewayDrug
I don’t mean to be a party pooper, or anything, and please believe me when I say this has been a fascinating read so far, but the OP did ask us to assume all of the conditions set forth, and then answer the actual question, to wit: “how long before Berlin and Tokyo declare war on each other?” You guys aren’t playing the game. Granted, you’ve been doing an excellent job of demonstrating that the game has no real meaning, but how about a little suspension of disbelief (as Johnny Depp said in “Ed Wood”)?
Probably within two years of the cease fire, somebody would have pointed out to Hitler that the Aryan race probably didn’t include Asians. At this point, the madman’s “Master Race” imperative would have kicked in, and 'Dolph and Tojo wouldn’t be best buddies no more.
Sometimes the meaningless games can be just as much fun as the real kind.
BTW, yes I am a brand-new poster to this forum (or in any forum at all, for that matter). I’ve been enjoying many of your posts both here in GD and in the PIT for several days now, and I hope to avoid being taken for a troll. Let’s see how it works out.
One last thing. I seem to have all the rest of the acronyms, but for the life of me, I can NOT figure out what IIRC stands for.
respectfully,
kaylasdad99
Tom Berenger: “You’re not a good guy at all!”
Patrick Wayne: “I’m a LAWYER, you idiot!!”
IIRC: If I Recall Correctly
The Ryan wrote
The quest for lebensraum, or living space, was a central tenet of Hitler’s plans for Germany, as well stated in Mein Kampf. The push to the east was absolutely driven by the desire for territorial acquisition.
Ideologically, and in application, there just isn’t much difference between Fascism and Communism. But you do have to consider the “there’s not room for two top dogs on this block” phenomenon.
If the Germans had won the war we’d have better roads over here and lousy teeth. Oh, and comedy clubs would never exist. Lite beer would be outlawed and we’d be taxed up the butt. We’d listen to singers with names like Heino and David Hasselhof and thing they had talent.
…and CMKeller would never have been born, on account of his ethnically impure anscestors dying in a gas chamber, along with billions of other innocent people.
Sorry, Shirl, but I can’t see that sort of flippant tone being applied to something like a Nazi takeover of the states.
The Ai\ Yue- Ha
FAQ:
- Eye You-way Han
- It’s Chinese.
- The symbols are tone marks.
- No, I wasn’t drunk when I registered.
- Just call me John, OK?
Darn! You spoiled everything. I was going to try to convince him that it stood for “Inside I’m Really Crying.” Sort of a retort to LOL.
Ai\ Yue- Ha
:
There’s a fine tradition of laughing about the Nazis. Like the old CIA joke…
Q: Who are East Germans
A: Nazis without the charm
Sure, this grants Nazis charm, but it’s still funny. Like PJ O’Rourke replied when some leftist called him a Nazi, no woman ever fantasized about being ravished by a socialist. I think we all realize the gravity of Naziism on the 20th Century.
Comedy = Tragedy + Time (Woody Allen)
A man, a plan, a canal: GatewayDrug
Temujin (if that’s your REAL name),
Nice try, but it wouldn’t have worked. I may be a smartass, but I’m not a gullible smartass. Nobody ever convinced me to fetch a water hammer, a can of relative bearing grease, or a length of main steam line, or to show up at the periscope to watch for the mail buoy.
Still, thanks for acknowledging my presence.
Regards,
Kaylasdad99
Tom Berenger: “You’re not a good guy at all!”
Patrick Wayne: “I’m a LAWYER, you idiot!!”
Ehh? Is P.J. O’Rourke trying to be funny? Ravished by a socialist? Does he think Nazi is the opposite of socialist or the same as a socialist? Why would someone fantasize about being violently assaulted by anyone? I imagined getting robbed the other day, but I wasn’t really fantasizing? Unfortunately, I only get the political jokes that are told be people with some sense of history and ethics, so P.J. doesn’t usually tickle me.
beatle
Member posted 10-02-1999 09:48 AM
I didn’t say that it wasn’t driven by territorial reasons, I just said that ideological differences were more important. Why didn’t Hitler invade Italy? Because he and Mussilini agreed about politics. Hitler not only made an unprovoked attack on the USSR, he did it after signing a treaty with the USSR. Fo you really think that the German populace would have gone along with that sort of thing against another fascist country?
In application, Fascism and Communnism work out to pretty much the same thing, but that doesn’t mean they’re ideologically the same. If Communists had taken over Germany, they wouldn’t have just left everything the way it was. Fear of Communism helped Hitler rise to power, and he knew that attacking a Communist country would boost his support.
boris b, perhaps in the interests of economy I didn’t set the joke up properly. The quip plays off the fact that a long running theme in S&M videos is that of being dominated by someone in a Nazi uniform, with riding crop and all. The joke is that if someone, in a fit of hypebole, calls you a Nazi, you reply that well, no one dreams of getting dominated by a socialist; i.e. there’s nothing sexy about socialists, but there is about Nazis in a perverse, fetishistic, submissive way. Of course, when explained in detail, it loses some humor. But anyway, I’m not sure this hole I’ve dug for myself is quite deep enough…helloooooo? [voice barely escaping shaft]
A man, a plan, a canal: GatewayDrug
ooops, that’s HYPERBOLE
A man, a plan, a canal: GatewayDrug
Read “Holidays in Hell” and tell me that P.J. doesn’t have far more insight into matters political than hacks like Dan Rather.
I agree with you dhanson, Holiday In Hell was brilliant and funny. It was PJ after all that said, " Nothing cures communism like a Big Mac."
Okay, GatewayDrug. I hadn’t heard of the connection between Nazi imagery and bondage & domination fantasy. I guess I thought O’Rourke was making a joke more along the lines of Clayton Williams’ ultra-gaffes in the Texas Governor race.
I read Parliament of Whores and I really wasn’t impressed. Hey, members of Congress take campaign contributions! What’s more, they try to be popular in their constituencies! Proof that democracy is a failure!
But I concede that he may have some decent work I’m unware of.
Parliament of Whores was not his best. Read “Among the Euroweenies” from Holidays in Hell – it’s got to be one of the most funny, astute pieces on Euro-American relations ever written.