If God is real, why did it take so long to realize Him?

If God is real, and he talked with Adam and Eve at the begining of creation, and apparantly many other humans way back in the ‘begining’, why did it take so long for him to be realized?
Why would Pagan religions develop in Rome and Greece and Israel and Egypt if God was there talking to people in the Begining? How do theologists justify this?

Abraham was the first to talk about “God”, right? And this is the same god that Jews, Muslims, and Christians worship, right? What year did he do this? Why would so much time pass between creation and the realization of God?

I could be way off, and maybe Abraham was there in the begining (or shortly thereafter)… but then one questions still remains. Why would other religions develop if God talked to the first two people ever. You’d think those two people would try to make it clear to their kids who God is. And their kids would do the same with theirs, etc.

Also, how many years passed between “creation” and the start of the belief in Egyptian or Roman Gods? What is the justification for the development of these other religions?

I guess they could have just “started”. Maybe someone told a convincing story about Zeus or Hercules one day. Religions can still start today. Look at Scientologists. But scientology is hardly accepted by an entire race/culture like Egyptian gods were in that time.

Bear_nenno, I think we discussed this in an earlier thread. It’s a bit difficult to answer your questions, as they are based on a couple of assumptions that are probably flawed.

  • Religions don’t usually appear in a complete and final form. Even those that claim to (eg Islam) are actually aggregates of earlier beliefs, perhaps corrected at their god’s request. Thus, the exact start of Judaism / Christianity / Islam vs the exact start of Roman / Egyptian theology is a bit hard to pin down.
  • Religions are rarely monolithic constructs, especially if they’re popular relgions, such as Christianity. They contain a variety of different ‘streams’, if you will, as well as the occasional cult on the fringe. Every stream will have different specific beliefs about when they came into being etc.
  • The two caveats above apply especially well to the Roman and Egyptian religions. They were extremely amorphous concepts lasting for millenia. Two neighbours would never really worship the exact same gods in the exact same way.

I don’t think I need to talk about the assumption of Creation as per the Bible / Torah etc as literal truth. I’m sure others will.

Given all of the caveats above, here’s the short answer - polytheistic beliefs have been around longer than Christianity and its “cousins” Judaism and Islam. Teh Egyptians had been worshipping some parts of their pantheon since about 3500 BC, I think. Some elements of Roman belief may have been around since about 710 BC. Historical evidence for Judaism in a vaguely recognizable form only starts around the same time as the semi-historical King David, a bit more than 1000 years before Christ. All these religions were far enough away from each other, by the standards of the time, to not take each other over, at least in their early stages.

As for the theological justification of why all people are not Christians / Jews / Muslims if bibical Creation is literally true, it might be argued by some that humans rejected God at some point or gradually fell into ‘incorrect’ beliefs.

I was going to say that maybe it wasn’t even a question for people at a certain point. Not to say that it’s a rejection, but as I said in another thread about Good and Evil is that the opposite is implied automatically by any statement. So you can view the questioning of God’s nature to be a rejection of God perhaps, assuming of course that there was a point in history where it wasn’t even a question, or whether we started to come into the knowing of God later.

Erek

In the beginning, Eve was fooled by the serpent. The serpent told her that she could be like God. Eve did know that God existed and being that she was given free will, she had the choice to listen to what God told her, or listen to the serpent who told her she could know all things like God. Being human, she was curious and wanted more.

The serpent doesn’t want people to worship God, so he trys to give them options. We have free will and we certainly are tempted by alternatives that look or seem appealing. As time went on, people were tempted by the devil. He showed them things that looked good. He said worship me, ______, and I will do this that and the other thing for you. Now this spiritual being is talking to these people. He is not going to say, “worship me so I can destroy you” he is going to say, "worship me and I will do great things for you. Now if some thing is speaking to impressionable, seeking people and saying that he is god and he wants , to help them if they worship him, they are going to follow. Why? Because the devil is convincing and when people here what they want to here, they choose that alternative. In a nutshell, people want and always have wanted to do things their way. So if God tells them there is only one way to do it, they will either do it or choose not to. Cain knew God and wanted to do things his own way. God gave specifics, and Cain chose not to follow. There were probably people who didn’t like Gods way, and chose not to tell their children about Him. That is how some may have not heard about God.

That is why there are other gods and religions.

Also, Abraham was not there in the beginning. He was just a man. A chosen man, but not there in the beginning.

If you want to look up the other gods the Bible speaks of, here is a few:

Astroloth - Judges 2:13, Samuel 7:3-4

Baal - 2 Samuel 2:8; 1 Kings 17:1, 18:17-19; 2 Kings 1:2-5; Jeremiah 9:13-16; Hoseah2:2-13, 14-22

Baal-zebul - 2 Kings 1:2-5

Bel - Isaiah 46:1-4

Beelzebul - Mark 3:22

Chemosh - Numbers 21:29, Judges 11:24

“Day Star” and Dawn - Isaiah 14:12-15

Hadad-rimmon - Zechariah 12:11

Ishtar - Jeremiah 44:15-28

Marduk - Jeremiah 50:2-3

Milkom - 2 Samuel 12:30

Nabu - Isaiah 46:1-4

Sakkuth and Kaiwan - Amos 5:26

Tammuz - Isaiah 17:9-11; Ezekiel 8:14-18; Daniel 11:36-39

I am not certain, but maybe you could look and see where it starts and how many years past until some of these gods came to be.

Also, FYI, not all people believe that Jews, Muslims, and Christians worship the same God.

Just a nutshell version, JD

Everyone knows there are dollar bills.
There are always counterfeits too.

These “other gods” are counterfeits.

Bear_nenno, I think people are having a bit of trouble answering your question at the mo. Do you want to rephrase it, given these various posts? Are you looking for the Christian view of how other religions can exist, given a literal interpretation of the Bible? Are you asking for a historical comparison of the faiths, something a bit more in my area? Something else?

The story of Adam and Eve is a myth.

Pagan religions developed both before and after monotheism developed in Persia (Zoroastrianism is believed to be the first true monotheistic religion) and Palestine (Judaism).

No, Abraham was not the first to talk to God, according to the Bible. That would be Adam. Yes, Jews and Muslims and Christians generally consider themselves to worship the same God. Keep in mind that Judaism came first (not sure, way way B.C.), then Christianity (starting with Christ’s preaching, roughly A.D. 40 or so), then Islam (late 600s). Both Christianity and Islam are derived from Judaism.

According to the Bible, there was no “lag” between creation and the realization of God, since God created Adam near the beginning, and Adam talked directly with God.

The fundamentalist answer (that is, taking the Bible literally) is that people started to ignore God and become evil. Hence the Flood, etc. The “real” answer is that the Bible stories are myths, and religion developed everywhere in the world. Sometimes religions influenced each other, sometimes not.

The earth is about 4.55 billion years old.The Age of the Earth Egyptian civilization began before 3000 B.C. http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture3b.html. In contrast, the age of Abraham is thought to be about 1950 B.C. http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fcampus.northpark.edu%2Fhistory%2FWebChron%2FMiddleEast%2FAncientIsrael.html. Egptian civilization and religion came first.

But wasn’t Abraham the first to record his conversations? Or is there some other reason they refer to Him as “The God of Abraham”?

Actually, I am looking for a little of all that. I am interested in hearing what anyone has to comment on the statements and questions I posted. Much of it is debatable, so I posted it hear. Everyone, including you, has posted very interesting answers and view points. This is exactly what I was looking for.

At the heart of the debate, though, is exactly How one can justify man developing so many religions when God was there from the begining. It would make a little more sense if God made people and waited to talk to them for a while. Waited until, say the time of Abraham. By that time, people had made up their own false religions. But then Abraham told them about God, and many started to see the light and change their ways.
But if God was talking to people from the very first day, how could people become confused and worship other gods?
JerseyDiamond says it’s because the Devil is influencing people. Interesting… There is a statement for debate.
The other statement about humans just being curious by nature or just not agreeing with God…
Im sorry, but that just makes no sense at all. Even the most evil non-believer would go to Church everyday and give away all his possessions if a loud voice from the sky told him to do it.
I don’t think there is a human alive who would argue or disagree with God. If you were about to do something wrong, and God started speaking to you from heaven… you would listen. I could see people losing faith or something. But you no longer need faith when you are talking face to face with God.
Maybe if hundreds and hundreds of years passed before he ever spoke to someone again… then people would begin to doubt and to forget. But then why did God stop talking to people for so long. Why did he start talking again to Abraham? Is there anything written to suggest he stopped talking to humans for a while and then one day started chatting away again?

Thanks for the passages. I will sit down and read through them next week when I should have some free time.

I would say that living people are no less mythologized than people like Adam and Eve who we have no real record of exist for.

The story of Adam and Eve is quite complex and is not a story merely of god saying to do this and not to do this. They were already confronted with a choice to go one way or another, they did not know anything of the choice, and only after making the choice did they choose their direction. It’s not about guilt, merely about choice. The serpent represents to me, accepting fully your choice. It is not a denial of god, merely the beginning of the delving into what god truly is and is not, god contemplating god via gods creation.

And Hinduism is a monotheist religion, so whenever it began would be a good place to start looking for the beginnings of monotheism.

As for Cain and Abel, I recently read an interesting thing talking about how Cain was repenting for sins and never had committed a sin, as Abel was repenting or sins he HAD committed, then Cain killed Abel.

Erek

What do you mean? Are we all mythological figures, or are you saying that the fact that the only evidence for these two people comes from a religious work does not necessarily mean they are mythological?

Hinduism is NOT monotheistic. It has at least three gods, with various aspects or avatars, as well as a host of consorts, vehicles and so on.

Yes, there is a reason. The story of Adam and Eve is a myth. The history of Judaism, although it’s purported origins might not be completely factual, is by no means a myth. Around the time of Abraham, certain Semitic tribes (the Israelites, so to speak; the term “Jew” refers specifically to those who were in the Kingdom of Judah, when Israel split into two states) started believing in a religion that eventually developed into the monotheistic faith that we today call “Judaism.” On the other hand, other tribes remained pagan. Hence, the term “God of Abraham” would have been meaningful in a time and place when most tribes were pagan.

It’s rather simple: there IS NO God, and all of the religions are wrong. Now, to further refine this categorical statement, I believe that the Divine inheres in all things, and all people experience the Divine to at least some degree (i.e., pantheism). Hence, all religions are wrong to a high degree, but they are all also correct to a degree.

Well, this interpretation certainly fits neither fundamentalist “theory” nor historical reality. Again, please distinguish between myth and reality.

God wasn’t really talking to them.

Lunatic fundamentalist rhetoric.

God doesn’t really talk to people in this way, since, for one thing there is no God.

Sure you do–how do you know that the entity purporting to be God is really God? The fact of the matter is that there IS no way that you can test whether a being is omnipotent, omnicient, etc. There is no “God test.”

So if God is real, why doesn’t he do like say, in the movie “The Day The Earth Stood Still”? Stop all commerce, go on every TV, radio, etc. and say “It is time for you to stop your silly wars, stop your thievery, stop your lying, stop your sinning, stop your racism, etc., because you are all my children and I command that you do so”?

Why do people go hungry, why do people have to die of painful disease, why do people lose their houses and jobs, why do people have to suffer if there is such a being as God? Is God then a masochist who enjoys the suffering of the people he supposedly created?

Right-o. I consider the argument from evil sufficient disproof of a monotheistic “God.” It’s sad to see the theists do cartwheels trying to say it ain’t so to the ain’t-so.

Sorry, Aeschines, Abraham and Moses are every bit as much a myth as Adam and Eve. Each culture has origin myths, and Abraham, and the patriarchs, were those of my ancestors. Typically the name of a tribe would be given to its supposed founder. Adam, which stands for man, was given to the first man.

Bear Nemo, the answer to your very reasonable question is that each of the religons arose somewhat independently. (Naturally religions that arose near other ones shared characteristics, like the Flood story coming from Gilgamesh.)

We can forget Adam and Eve - what about the descendants of Noah? Why did his descendants, those of the one good man, who rode out the flood, suddenly forget God? How come religions with records from before the supposed flood continued unchanged after it? (The culture too - I’ve seen Chinese artifacts in museums from before the supposed flood. Amazing that Noah’s descendants would move into China, and start producing pottery that looks exactly like those of the drowned former descendants.)

So, you’ve got two choices - you can make up intensely complicated stories, that go against all archeological and scientific evidence, or you can say that religions evolved independently. If you are not a literalist, this isn’t that big a problem. But it is just one more strike against fundamentalism.

No, I am saying that anything we know of that we did not experience directly is no more real to our existance than the mythology as the mythology oftentimes has an even greater pull on our day to day reality than actual history.

Hinduism IS monotheistic, it has multiple names for God. I suppose we could argue on this as an implication, but I’ve read a number of sources about this and even had a Brahmin Priest tell me that it was monotheistic. And in the end, I go on my own impressions first and foremost, and my impression of what little Hinduism I’ve studied is that it’s a monotheistic with Brahma, Rudra, and Vishnu being trine aspects of Shiva representing creation maintenance and destruction.

Aeschines:

To what high degree are atheism and secularism incorrect and to what degree are they correct?

Erek

Why does somebody always have to say something like this in these threads? It’s out of place within the context of the question, which starts right out saying, “If God is real…” That says to me that the OP is asking us to assume, for the sake of argument, that the stated condition is true. Whether it is true or not is irrelevant to the question.

What if this was a math problem? “If a train leaves Triopolis at 50MPH…”, pointing out that Triopolis has no railroad service contributes nothing to solving the math problem. Ah, but we’re talking about religion here, so of course it’s imperative that we establish the mythological status of Bible stories. :rolleyes:
Anyway, to answer the OP:

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were in direct, face-to-face communication with God. We can see this in the way the Bible describes God walking through the Garden to visit them after they had sinned - they heard Him coming, and they hid themselves. Had God simply been a voice coming from the sky, they most likely would have seen the pointlessness of hiding - they would have perceived Him as being too big to hide from. But since they were accustomed to visiting with Him face-to-face, of their human minds perceived Him as a person from whom they could hide.

The act (decision) of disobedience (eating the fruit) was indeed a rejection of God. At the very least, it was a rejection of His will. Because of that decision, God withdrew. He no longer walked and talked with them in the Garden on a regular basis. We could say that from that point on, God only showed up physically to make important announcements.

In any case, Adam & Eve knew who and what God was, and they knew what was expected of them. They knew the proper way to serve Him and worship Him. Even after He withdrew from them, they still knew what to do. This knowledge was passed on to Cain and Abel. However, Cain and Abel did not have the benefit of visiting with God face-to-face. They had to perform their service and worship based on what their parents taught them. And somewhere along the line, Cain misinterpreted those instructions. That was the source of his conflict with his brother: Able was following the instructions properly, and his work was acceptable. Cain, either intentionally or inadvertently, did not follow the instructions, and his work was unacceptable.

At this point, when Cain’s work was found unacceptable, he could easily have corrected his error (repented). He would have then been found acceptable. Instead of correcting his error, he believed he was being compared to his brother. He may have thought that, by eliminating his brother, there would no longer be a comparison, and his work would be acceptable.

And so error crept into the second generation. We can see, even today, that when an error is left uncorrected, it tends to multiply itself. It was the same then. Cain had received the proper instruction, but chose to do things his own way. It’s safe to assume that he then neglected to teach his own children the proper ways. In fact, he probably continued in his own error. His children then learned from him, and likely added their own errors into the mix. This continued, generation after generation.

Eventually, we had a large group of people who had no clue about the original instructions. And as more and more errors crept into their beliefs, new gods were invented, new religions sprang up.

At the same time, there were some who continued to adhere to the original instructions. And so we read the stories of those people. Although God had withdrawn physically from the human race, and no longer had a face-to-face relationship with the majority, there were still those who were willing to listen and obey. Noah was willing to listen, and was apparently the last of the original obedient line. So God spoke directly to him. “Build an ark!” But then the whole thing started over again - as the Earth was repopulated, errors once again crept into the beliefs, and a few generations later, there are new gods and new religions again.

So God came down and spoke to Abraham. I think the odds are that Abraham may have been an adherent of one of the false religions. But God recognized that Abraham would listen if spoken to directly. Abraham did, and so we read his story. In spite of the prevalence of pagan religions there were still those people here and there who continued to adhere to the original instructions. King Melchizadek, whom Abraham encountered. Moses met and married the daughter of Jethro, who was identified as a priest of God. There were always those for whom the original instructions had been passed down intact, even though everybody around them was screwing up.

An organized religion was not originally necessary. But eventually, it was needed. God decided that there needed to be a people established who would maintain the instructions. And so he arranged everything that let to the creation of the nation of Israel and what we now know as Judaism, and from Judaism sprang Christianity.

So God was “realized” right from the beginning, but it was the people who went astray.

Most religions, whatever god they worship, usually make it clear that if you were standing in the physical presence of their god, you would be left with no doubt as to who it was. But you’re correct: there is no test. It’s one of those situations where you’ll know it when you see it.

Voyager: American cultures have a flood myth as well. Could you provide a cite about these Chinese artifacts that are more than 11,000 years old? Also, I’ve seen some interesting discussions of the idea that the Sphinx might predate the flood, or post-date it by a mere few years.

Erek

Or maybe the ones throughout history to do it “correctly” are just the ones hwo are the most vain and presumptuous, and there is no correct way to do it. Maybe Abel was a major prick and quite mean to Cain making him feel guilty for everything, then one day in a fit of rage Cain realized that Abel had been duping him into thinking that his way was the only right way all this time, that all he could think of to do in response was to kill him. Maybe the “chosen” people are simply the most arrogant, and other than that have no particularly distinguishing characteristics.

Erek

mswas, I’ve heard the argument that Hinduism is monotheistic because there is an overall god, or force (“Brahman”, I believe) inside us all. In practice though, the Hindus worships hundreds, even thousands of gods, with different attributes and different purposes. There are different gods in different locations. Hinduism might not be technically polytheism with the overall “life-force”, but to call it monotheism is, at best, highly misleading.

The flood was in 9000BC now? I thought biblical creation was meant to occur in about 4004BC. On a Monday, as I recall.

If you think that the sphinx has been around for 11,000 years, you’re off by about 6500 years.

Feel free to believe what you want about God etc, just don’t post without checking your facts first.

Fine with me…