If goods manufactured in China/ Rest of Asia are cheap because of the labour and inferior quality...

Does that mean that the jokes is on the Western consumer for paying $500 for iPads and computers which become obsolete and break down in 5-10 years?

It seems today planned obsolescence is the driver of profit. Companies are raking in cash for on new products that only have a few unimportant features upgraded.

This is probably why few companies are making their products in the Developed world. Regulations and standards mean Apple can’t just demand more products 24/7. They have to be more accountable for their actions.

Isn’t it amazing how people can’t take a bit time and effort into looking at specs of different products and choose the best one. Instead the follow blindly what adverts tell them (Not everyone of course is like this).

What exactly are you wanting to discuss?

You might want to read this:

The quality is no different. The companies like Apple design their products to the standards they set, with the components they specify, and do quality control to ensure they meet the standards they set. iPads and such are not junk, or more shoddy, coming from China. Any obsolescence is due to the speedy advance of technology, driven as usual by the demand for more powerful devices with more memory and longer battery life.

(I still have an original iPad, a 10-year-old iPod, and a iPhone 3GS. I must say, they iPod still works although I hardly use it - it’s held up better than competing MP3 players. The iPhone is great; it’s unlocked and I use it with local SIM cards when I travel.)

The big difference is cost - labour is one quarter to one tenth the cost of here in North America, with a lot less of the pesky labour laws that make business annoying over here - and of contracted out, those problems are someone else’s. If we use the very rough rule of thumb that labor is half the cost of manufacturing over here, then by using the same components but one quarter the labour cost, you can shave 35% or more off the cost. The question is, why is there any manufacturing left over here?

Same with Nike and The Gap. They design and specify the materials, and do quality control assessments on the finished product. It’s unlikely the goods would be any different from local factories. The problem is - when you contract it all out to jobbers - you rely on them for quality and honesty and on-time delivery.

Where the reputation of China comes from - two things: frauds and fakes.

It is possible to use fraudulent materials or components, things that are not up to standards. Lulu Lemon, for example, got caught when they were dealt a substandard batch of stretchy material, making their yoga pants semi-transparent when appropriately stretched. By not having hands-on every step of the process, this slipped by causing multi-million dollar damage and no end of good punchlines. Whether the substitution error would have been more easily caught if done locally? Who knows. It obviously fooled their quality control.

Similarly, some clever chemistry guys figured out that adding melamine to a product fooled the quality control chemical tests for protein content - so a lot of milk and similar products were adulterated with melamine to improve the protein quality score. Result? A lot of dead babies in China, a lot of dead pets in the USA.

Fakes are something else altogether. There are grey market fakes and fake fakes. Grey market are items produced, probably at the same factory using the same materials as a name brand. They are likely over-production or from keeping the factory going at night and sneaking the excess out the back door. These are valuable because the normal channel imposes a MASSIVE markup on name brands. DO you really think the materials in an Air Jordan justify a price more than ten times the Wal-Mart el cheapo sneaker? Someone is getting rich, and it ain’t the Chinese. They sell pretty much the same thing under the table, people pay half the price but get the same product, everyone’s happy except Nike and Jordan. Similarly, if they are stamping out the latest DVD’s at a factory, a few extra might make it out the back door. MGM doesn’t get their cut.

OTOH, for the price they charge, Jordan has to use good materials. Fake fakes use the cheaper materials. They simply put the desirable name on sneakers, or purses, or watches, or whatever. These are the goods that give China its reputation. Prada or Coach (probably?) don’t make cheap vinyl purses that fall apart after a few months, but put their name on something that does, and someone will pay a few extra dollars for it. If the look costs more than the basic materials, there’s money to be made in fakes - and brand names have been pushing consumers to pay for the look for decades.

As for cheap and labour costs - note that most of the clothing today comes not from China, but from a plethora of third-world countries. China is well on its way to becoming a first world country, a generation or two behind Japan and close on the heels of South Korea. Even in the hinterlands, labour costs are far higher than Bangladesh or Burma or Vietnam. I have already seen articles where Chinese authorities are concerned about losing manufacturing to other countries.

Regulation and standards don’t make it impossible to work 24-7; it just means that labour laws mean you may have to deal with pesky unions since workers want a share of that windfall the corporation is raking in. Strikes could mean you don’t get the deliveries in time for Christmas. You have to deal with OSHA and keep the workplace safe, and pay a fortune for industrial accidents. Contracting out means all that is someone else’s headache, and if they don’t deliver, you don’t pay. If you’re contracting out anyway, the place that charges less than half the price to manufacture overseas will win every time.

This is the problem. Remember the garment factory that collapsed in Bangladesh? The owners didn’t force the workers in because they were heartless bastards who did not care about their workers. (that detail was irrelevant). They forced the people to keep working because they had a deadline. The have to deliver the entire job by the deadline (appropriate name). The contracts typically are either all or nothing. If they only have 90% of it done, the company has missed the contract and have 90% of a container load or ten of shirts with a brand logo sewn in, that basically have to be destroyed since they can’t easily be retailed elsewhere… the local Bangladesh producer eats the cost of materials and labour for an unfilled contract… so ignore distractions, ignore cracks in the wall, get back to work. The circumstances of the contracting out business basically force the local companies to be slave drivers.

This ignores, too, the fact that these factories pay pretty good wages. A dollar a day may not sound like much, but apparently it’s as good or better than most local work pays; and without the foreign contracts, there would not even be that.

You got the cheap labor part correct.

But “inferior quality”? You seem to have a complete lack of information regarding the quality topic.

Just like everywhere else in the world, there is a range of quality produced in China and Asia and it typically depends on the intended market/price point. The company placing the order for manufacturing controls their destiny when choosing which mfg will produce the item, which components will be used, allowable failure rates, etc.

I tell you what – it’ll be a cold day in Hell before I trade in my AMC Pacer for a rice-burning Datsun.

Oh wait, this isn’t 1976.

It’s interesting to watch these things change. I read a report the other day which said that many (some) manufacturers in the UK are shortening their supply lines and bringing component manufacturing home. Who knows what the truth of this is, but planning a production schedule where some components are on a six month lead time, and subject to the vagaries of weather and shipping problems, must be harder than if the components are manufactured locally, and only the raw materials shipped in.

To this has to be added tax and other considerations surrounding imports - especially imports of finished goods. Most countries penalise imports in some way, and it benefits the likes of Toyota and Nissan to have factories in the USA and the EU.

The manufacturing costs in China are less than 5% of the cost of these goods.

Also, yeah marketing plays a big role. A new iphone comes out every 2 years or so. The difficulty in replacing a battery in apple products is supposedly a tool of planned obsolescence. I have no idea if that is true or an urban legend.

Either way, there is nothing stopping the people who buy a $500 iPhone every 2 years from buying a $100 android phone and keeping it for 5 years. This is more of a marketing issue than a manufacturing one.

No more amazing than people who join Message Boards and cant’ take a bit of time and effort to read the rules in order to understand which forums are appropriate for which OPs. :slight_smile:

Reported for form change.

Oy.
Again with the Planned Obsolescence!

What does this even mean? Do you expect designs to be frozen in time? Do you expect manufacturers to produce a product and never fix shortcomings, or add features?

Planned Obsolescence is basically a myth. It’s what the term that cheapskates use for progress

The underlying assumption here is that labor in the US works harder, does a better job, and produces higher quality products than overseas labor.

I can’t imagine a US high school/community college teacher who wouldn’t laugh their butts off if you told them that.

Besides the names mentioned, some of the most exclusive brands on Earth are made in China - Prada, Gucci, Vuitton, Coach. Not just the lowest-end pretender stuff but nearly everything except the very limited-production couture and accessories. Get admitted to Gucci’s exclusive floor and that $20k handbag is probably made by European craftsmen… but the stuff on floor 1, up to and including bags in the $3-6k range? China.

Since there isn’t a General Question apparent, let’s move this one to MPSIMS.

samclem, moderator

I read an article about how Apple made a change to the iPhone design. Steve Jobs had decided, just before production was to start, to use a glass screen rather than a plastic one. One executive flew to Shenzen, China, where the iPhone was to be manufactured. There, Foxconn executives made 8,000 workers, as well as hundreds of industrial engineers, available within hours. A former Apple executive said, “You need a thousand rubber gaskets? That’s the factory next door. You need a million screws? That factory is a block away. You need that screw made a little bit different? It will take three hours.”

Some people seem to think that Chinese production always means shoddy, low-quality goods. But that’s not true. Chinese factories produce first-quality goods as well as really cheap shit. (If you’re in the US, you never even really see the really cheap shit coming out of China, as it’s sold internally or in poorer countries.) And remember that Japan and Korea started off making cheap shit but now have a reputation for first-quality stuff.

Not sure what you’re talking about. Planned Obsolescence is an actual thing. Part of it is based on practicality. But a lot of it is based on marketing. You probably don’t need to buy a new cell/smart phone every year. But, the fact is, at some point you will need to buy one because the old one will seem hopelessly slow and outdated.

Chinese labour has to be shockingly cheap. I bought some generic “magic eraser” melamine pads last week - they’re just sponges directly in a cardboard box. The label on the side said they’d been made in Germany, but packaged in China. :eek: I can’t imagine the disparity of costs such that it made financial sense to ship the things halfway 'round the world and back just so they could pay less to have someone shove them in a box.

It is shockingly cheap, sometimes less than a dollar an hour (though it is quickly rising as the labor force becomes more skilled.) along with that is long shifts and little spent on workplace safety.

It’s not just the low cost of labor in China. It’s also the low cost of shipping goods overseas that makes it practical to, for example, produce melamine pads in Germany, ship them to China for packaging and then ship the finished goods to the US for retail sale.

Once again - there’s nothing planned about that.
That’s just normal product development. It would only be planned if the manufacturer deliberately held off features that were ready to be implemented.

In today’s extremely competitive market, any manufacturer who did that would simply cause potential customers to buy a competitor’s product.

People who throw around the term “planned obsolescence” need an education as to what it takes to actually bring a product to market at a profit.

People sometime conflate planned obsolescence and things just not lasting because they are cheap; and both with things being built up to a specification at a point in time, while the requirements and expectations of the consumer continue to evolve. Why should I expect my tablet to have the same useful lifetime as an old Philco TV? All I wanted of the Philco was the Game of the Week and the Late Show. On the tablet, two years from now I may need some functionality that I’ve never even thought as of today!

Or from buying the $500 iPhone once in 5 years vs. a new android phone every year – if you don’t care about the latest bells and whistles in your technology, or about the dernier-cri of fashion in your clothes, you do not need to trade in and replace upon every “season”; while if you do, you may end up choosing a cheaper item so you can replace it more often.

As I mentioned in another thread, I have a 4-year-old iPhone that is still just truckin’ along fine, battery and all, but as it will get no further OS updates I will likely replace it this year with the only hesitation being whether to hold out a few months more to see whether iPhone6 gives me a reason to stay in the ranch. Whatever the practices at that Chinese plant, it was and is a high quality piece of equipment, has provided satisfactory service, and by holding on to it for four years instead of rushing to stand in lines for an upgrade upon every announcement of a new feature be it real or vaporware, I feel I got my money’s worth. It did not become prematurely obsolete for me.