If I hear "Communism looks good on paper" One More Time, I'm Gonna Crash My Tractor

The BBQ Pit
#1

Communism seems to be the hot topic in GD these days. As genuine pinko scum, I usually enjoy these sorts of debates.

But for Karl’s sake, please stop saying “Communism looks good on paper, but doesn’t work in real life”. That is not an argument. That is *not{/i] an examination of the issues. That is some stupid ass cliche you overheard one of your junior high school teachers use once that you can’t resist parroting every time something even vaguely related to communism come up. I bet it makes you feel clever, doesn’t it? You’ve managed to dismiss one of the most important ideas of modern time without having to disturb your brain cells for even a moment. Bravo. Alan Greenspan is proud of you.

No other subject produces such a flushed and fervid flurry of ignorance as communism. I’m not saying you have to agree with me. I’ve talked to plenty of pro-capitalism folks that make for decent conversation. But if you are going to debate communism, please know at least a bit about. Repeating stock phrases like “Communism won’t work because people are naturally selfish” is just as relevent as me saying “Capitalism won’t work because Japanese people have black hair”. Communism is a pretty complex theory- it requires a paradigm shift thats a little hard to wrap one’s head around. It takes a willingness to believe for a moment that they way things are now are not how they have always been or how they always need to be. If you don’t want to think about it, fine. If you have thought about and still don’t agree- fine. But don’t get all red in the face trying to argue against something you remain willfully ignorant of. It pisses me off.

Now, with my luck, this thread will instantly devolve into “Communism doesn’t work- look at the Yugo” and “Communism doesn’t work- my mom wants to buy a diamond ring”…

#2

Well, have you ever SEEN a Yugo?

d+r

#3

I understand what you’re saying…completly.

It gets VERY tiresome to hear the same shit over and over again. You must have an infinite amount of patience.

#4

yes. I drove one for 2 years. people in hot hatches and sports cars used to try and race me at traffic lights. No one ever won though. I’ve never driven a car with acceleration to match it.

it’s the perfect town car. good acceleration, easy to park and very easy to fix. I’m not a good mechanic, but I almost began to think I was with the ease of fixing this car.

I MISS MY YUGO!!

#5

In all seriousness, I am tired of that argument as well. To understand what Marx was really getting at you’d have to understand Hegel. And understanding Hegel is no easy task. Also, the people who make this argument have obviously never read the Communist Manifesto; in it Marx is very vague about how it would actually be implemented, and IMHO that’s what makes it such a load of bunk. If he thought communism would actually take off he’d have been clear about how it would take place.

#6

Okay, so tell us why it’ll work, even sven.

By the way, ever figure out a new name?

#7

Communism doesen’t look good on paper. Too much red.

#8

“IAlso, the people who make this argument have obviously never read the Communist Manifesto; in it Marx is very vague about how it would actually be implemented, and IMHO that’s what makes it such a load of bunk. If he thought communism would actually take off he’d have been clear about how it would take place.”

But it’s not possible to be clear when one is not a prophet. He could not possibly know how anything would come about. All he could do is try. I think it goes beyond the Communist Manifesto though. What about “Wage, Labor and Capital?” That one is said to be more thorough albeit tedious…

But no matter how clear he was (or wasn’t), I think he’s still difficult to understand for most people…

#9

Well, of course he’s not a prophet, but at least he could lay out a clear plan. Basically, here’s what Marx says: People farm, then industrialize and the bourgeoisie takes control, and the people rise up in violent revolution and a “dictatorship of the people” takes control until perfect communism is implemented and we all live happily ever after. He provides no plan for this “dictatorship of the people.”

#10

Well. Communism does look good on paper, but…

<d&r>

#11

I don’t think communism even looks good on paper. Granted, part of that is that I love the idea of personal property. But mainly it’s due to the inability of a collectivist system to collect and disseminate the information that is conveyed via prices in a market-based system.

#12

**

I understand your frustration. I don’t even think the theory looks good on paper.

**

I wish I could say that it wasn’t one of the most important ideas of the 19th century but I can’t. I can’t call the deaths of millions and the suffering of hundreds of millions unimportant.

**

Likewise I suppose we can stop hearing exuses like “Communism has never been tried” or “The Soviet Union and China weren’t true Communist.”

Marc

#13

Oh fuck, Marc. Guns don’t kill people, and neither do ideas. Do you really think someone like Stalin would have killed fewer people had he been a Czar instead? Or the Shining Path? Or Mao? Sorry, I think that’s naive thinking.

#14

Actually, if I remember right, he said:

  1. Caveman live in pseudo-communist hunter gatherer tribes

  2. Man creates small towns, and slowly incorporates slaves to do the dirty work.

  3. Man creates capitalism, in which the proles are enslaved by circumstances, but do not realize it.

  4. Socialism “controls” capitalism and tries to take the nasty edges out of that whole “living” thing.

  5. A glorious peoples revolution finally overthrows the remaining vestiges of bourgeois tyranny. Ironically, man returns to his idealic original state.

#15

You are right, and I am sure that Fascism would have been just peachy if it weren’t for that nasty Hitler guy gumming up the works.
:rolleyes:

Men are the ideas that they profess and live by. If a man is evil, it is because his ideas are evil. It is impossible to seperate the two.

#16

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the new Yugo!

http://www.forbes.com/business/companies/2002/04/23/0423yugo.html

#17

Touche (spoken for Even Sven)

Even more ironically, he begins to hunt and gather.

Speaking of it not looking good on paper, has anyone read Atlas Shrugged? :wink:

#18

Atlas Shrugged covers step four.

Anthem (for which the copyright has expired, so you can read the entire bookon-line ) is what covers step 5.

#19

Hee hee hee

#20

Whaddaya mean YOUR tractor!?

If you fuck up our tractor the Kollectiv will kick your ass!