"If I only had a gun": 20/20 on ABC Fri

Oh, Lord, Algher, not John Lott? Who singlehandedly introduced academic America to the scholarly use of the sock puppet?

And** SB**? Some quotes from your citation?

“Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to,” says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. “That’s been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what’s going on.”

“…The conclusion seems inescapable: the Kleck and Gertz survey results do not provide reasonable estimates about the total amount of self-defense gun use in the United States…”

Not gonna say bogus. Damn sure gonna say a little less than definitive. For such a universal phenomenon, seems a mite thin.

(missed edit window)

And the experts’ advice for dealing with a rampaging gunman? Run, hide or scream for help. Of course the first two do nothing to try to save OTHERS from getting killed, and as for the third, when seconds count the police are just minutes away!

13 different surveys with presumably different methodologies came up with 800,000 on the low end. You laughed at the idea of there being hundreds. Pick any of the surveys and you’re still off by several orders of magnitude.

Plus your idea just fails the most cursory of glances at the issue. In a country where there are 80 million gun owners, you laugh at the idea that the number of crimes prevented with them might number in the hundreds.

[re: rate of defensive gun use]

That’s equivalent to about 1% of the adult population of the US having one defensive use per year. I find that very hard to believe. Violent crime rates are about 2.5% of the population per year assuming everyone has an equal risk (which is untrue, but let’s simplify). The very page you link to references several papers arguing that the 2 million number is wildly inflated, by as much as 45-fold; why didn’t you mention any of them?

The page itself explains this. There are 15 surveys that attempt to quantify the number. 14 of them fall within the 800k-2.5m range. The one with the outlier has huge gaping flaws in its methodology and it wasn’t really trying to quantify gun usage specifically in self defense:

Even using the 800,000 number at the low end, Luci’s personal estimate of less than hundreds is quite a bit off…

Boy, sure would be! About 5,480 defensive gun uses per day, nationwide. A lot which, apparently, go more or less unreported. Not even the NRA’s Armed Citizen, referenced above, comes anywhere near that. One has to wonder why. Well, you don’t have to wonder, but I do.

The media doesn’t even report it when something as dramatic as a school shooting in progress is stopped by lawful gun use - so why would they report the mundane?

Even if they weren’t deliberately averse to portraying gun use in a good light, “so and so scared off some robbers today” isn’t newsworthy.

Undoubtedly, though, your intuition is methodologically superior to those 14 studies, even if they disagree by several orders of magnitude.

There was one survey conducted under the Clinton Admin., that put the number around ~108,000.

And yeah, the “classroom shooting” incident was a total setup.

I’m also not buying the “kids cleaning the garage scenario.”

So your attackers’ accuracy will not be impeded in any way by their injuries, or by their attempts to not get shot in return? Who are you fighting, Skynet?

Right. Liberal media bias. OK, we’re done.

Classy. You choose to believe your own intuition about the number of defensive gun uses in this country and ignore 14 studies, some peer reviewed, and then implicitly declare that I’m the unreasonable and pack your bags and go home.

I didn’t say the media had a liberal bias. I think that whole aspect is overblown - the media has a much more worrisome pro-government bias than a bias towards any political party.

But on the issue of guns and portraying guns in a positive light, the media is undoubtedly biased.

For example:

So here we have a defensive gun use - a big one, one that stops a school shooting in progress. Big story, right? Except only four out of 218 news stories about the incident even mention that guns were used by the good guys.

If this story can’t make it into the media, what are the chances of more routine instances of people discouraging or stopping crimes against them with guns will be reported on?

So first you dismiss that 14 studies of defensive gun use have a better handle on the issue than your wild guess. Then you say that because I think the media has a deliberate bias against reporting that “we’re done”, as if I’d said something so absurd that I wasn’t even worth talking to, when it’s something that with a little bit of research is actually abundantly clear.

But this is consistent with your position here:

You seem think that anyone who holds a view critical of gun control is inherently irrational. It’s ironic that you ascribe this position to other people when it is clear that you are completely inflexible on this issue - you dismiss facts and assume that anyone who disagrees with you on the issue must be irrational.

If “we’re done”, then it’s because you’re running away with your tail between your legs.

So you felt that was a balanced piece huh? Even the part at the end where they couldn’t find studies of any times that a gun had saved a life? Even though in 2007 their very own John Stossel discussed that very occurrence? (Actually at least three) Nah no bias at all… :rolleyes:

You’re my favorite person for today.

The value of carrying (or possibly carrying) a firearm isn’t just that you’ll be able to draw down upon and outshoot and attacker, but that just by being armed you’ll deter a potential attacker from threatening you. Is this true? shrug If I were intent on attacking someone for fun or profit, I’d certainly prefer to go after a target that was unarmed versus one who had a firearm.

This whole line of discussion is somewhat specious; except for the rare instance of workplace/school shooters (who get wide publicity even though they make up a barely perceivable fraction of a percentage of criminal shootings) very few attacks begin with the perpetrator firing on the intended victim. Instead, most escalate from an initial threat to more violent action. In the case, say, of a single female versus one or more larger attackers intent on violence and rape, it is easy to see how possession and display of a firearm by the former may equalize the conflict and allow the intend victim to affect an escape. It may well not be true that, “an armed society is a polite society,” but a society in which the citizens can effectively resist criminal elements tends to discourage predation.

Which countries are these? While in some countries (particularly a few of the Commonwealth nations with a long history of restrictive civilian firearms ownership) standard patrol officers may not be armed, I can’t think of a single country that lacks an armed contingent of peace officers to respond to violent criminal action.

To address the specific issue of the o.p., how often have you ever seen a balanced, unbiased, fully informed discussion or debate on one of these “t.v. news magazine” shows? Such media is infotainment, intended to thrill and chill rather than provide even-handed discussion. There may be some pretense of showing all sides–and indeed, the producers of the show may even genuinely believe that they’re offering a balanced perspective–but it will doubtlessly be ill-informed and quoting the most extreme viewpoints on both sides of the issue. An even, consensus-leading discussion (as sardonically implied by msmith537) does not make for good copy.

Stranger

Did I think what was a balanced piece? Would it be all right with you if I’m held to account only for things I actually say? That would be nice, thanks.

Look at the thread title. And your sarcastic response about ‘Liberal media bias’. What ‘piece’ do you think is being discussed here?
JXJohns is logged off. But I believe he was asking if you thought the 20/20 titled If I only had a gun was a balanced piece of journalism. In other words, do you think that it presented both sides of the story with out bias or prejudice.

At the end of the If I only had a gun episode, Diane Sawyer stated that they could not find any statistics on defensive gun use. Yet as is cited by JXohns, a 2007 20/20 questions gun laws and brings up specific examples of people defending them selves with fire arms.

Let’s juxtapose a couple of facts here, see if we get the skepticism nerves a-throbbin’.

On the one hand, we have claims of 2 million defensive gun uses per year, averaging out to better than five thousand a day. I think that’s absurd. You want to sneer at it as intuition, fine, go right ahead.

But note the NRA, cited above in support. They put up this Armed Citizen page, compiling exactly what I suggested. (Careful what you wish for, I guess…) Now, that’s some pretty effective propaganda. But look at their page, a smattering of incidents spread out over some time.

On the one hand, we have thousands upon thousands of daily incidents. And we have a well-known and very well funded advocacy group that trumpets precisely such incidents to support their cause.

And yet, oddly, the page is not overflowing with daily “incidents”. Are they overwhelmed, is that it? The influx is too heavy for them to manage, not being able to afford staff and servers? Well, why not say so? Why not say “Hey, we get a thousand, five thousand a day here, we can’t cope, so we’ll just post the top couple hundred or so…”

But they don’t. Excellent, unassailable evidence that supports their cause, and they just pass it by.

Strike me as a bit odd. Doesn’t seem to bother you a bit. Why don’t they compile this overwhelming tide of daily incidents? They have the staff, they have the money, why pass by this bonanza to make their case?

What leaps to mind is that they don’t actually exist. You have, no doubt, a better explanation. I wait with bated breath.

As far as the dreaded “media bias” goes, you are free to make whatever claims you like, but bias is virtually unproveable, it is pointless to bring it up. The dog stinks, no, the dog has a musty and earthy odor.

And this Lott fellow, who seems to pop up all over these conversations as a paragon of objective research: you do know, don’t you, that he has some definite problems with his public honesty, right? So how come you don’t offer us that information along with your hearty approval?

And this statisitc about how 98% of such incidents are resolved by the mere brandishing of the weapon. 98% is pretty remarkable, 98% is North Korean election territory. I wonder, could it be that those incidents where the miscreant vanishes when banished by the Magical Object are so prevalent because that is precisely the sort of incidents that leave no physical evidence of having occured? No shots fired, hence no witnesses alerted. Miscreant does not leave dead/wounded self. All that remains is the gun owner, stating flatly that he pulled his gun, and the guy split. That’s it.

Leaves a lot of room for bogusity, no? And oddly enough, precisely that form of incident, the one that cannot be confirmed, is exactly that form of incident that comprises 98% of the total! Not 50%. Not 75% 98%!

Me, a bit doubtful. You, in the presence of the Gospel. Not so much as a hint of skepticism.

By definition, any study that comes down against guns has to be flawed. The inner cities have lots and lots of guns. That is why they are the safest places to live.

Didn’t watch it all, just some, not interested enough. News shows like that tend to the anecdotal, otherwise they quickly become dry and statistical. I already know how easy it is to get a gun, I really don’t need a victims brother to make that point.

Many people did watch the show. Many that will base their opinions on the BS that was presented.

You don’t believe there was any bias in the episode, and called JXJohns on it.

But you didn’t even watch it.

This one is for you luci - :rolleyes:

Possible but not likely, there isn’t a lot of unformed opinion out there.

Nope. Flat out bullshit.

Didn’t watch all of it. Hadn’t even aired when the interchange took place.

Bite me.