If its 'Flame the Prof. day' then be prepared for 'Flame the student day' as well!

The BBQ Pit
21

Yeah, I just realized that - and I’m sure that’s a pain in the ass. Personally, I’d be apt to tell them to go fuck themselves, but I’m sure that wouldn’t go over well with the administration. I’m just saying, too, that no matter what policies he puts into practice, be it an attendance policy or whatever, certain kids are going to fuck up. They’ll fuck up with an attendance policy, they’ll fuck up without one. I’m curious, though - when you say you tried not having an attendance policy, then told them that a certain class was mandatory, why was it mandatory? Was there a test or a quiz?

Perhaps you could let them know at the beginning of the semester that grades are dependent upon ‘x, y, and z’, and there will be no exceptions or extra work given at any time during the semester. Put it in the syllabus. Fuck 'em. I had my fill of immature college kids whining in my own classes because they didn’t bother to learn the material or study or analyze a Mozart symphony for their final project, and I have to admit, I’m not looking forward to being around that mentality again when I go back to school in January.

You have my sympathies, Philsophr. Do you ever have any parents call you to ask why their kid got such and such a grade? That did happen to one of my professors in college - she was one of my professors in private violin, so I got the full story. That was fun.

Ava

22

I can’t speak for others, but where I teach professors have quite a bit of latituted with respect to enforcing policies. In fact, it is strongly recommended that we clearly outline all of our policies in our syllabus. That way, a student can’t claim at a later date that they weren’t aware of the instructor’s policies - it’s spelled out in the syllabus.

Where I teach, we are required to keep attendence. I have a “no attendence” attendence policy, if that makes sense. In other words, I don’t have a specific policy of making students come to class. But if a student doesn’t come to class on a regular basis, then they won’t do very well. In almost every class I have taught, the students who don’t do well (either fail or get a grade well below what they expected) was a result of their not coming to class on a regular basis.

What I do to track attendence is by ensuring that any home assignments are to be given to me in class if they want to receive any credit. If I get an assignment placed in my mailbox, or if I somehow find one slid under my office door, the assignment magically “disappears”. Likewise for exams - any missed exam (regardless of the reason) students have the opportunity to take a make-up. However, the make-up exams are entirely essay (and a bit harder than my regular exams). If a student misses the final - congratualations! They get to take an oral comprehensive final exam that can cover anything relevant to the course.

While compulsory attendence may be a pain for some students, many institutions require it to ensure students are attending on a regular basis. Where I teach we are required to provide our Financial Aid office attendence information for those students receiving financial aid. If a student isn’t attending on a regular basis, then they are dropped from the class automatically and can have an impact on their financial aid status. It sucks, I know - I hate having to do it - but it makes it easier for some professors to report the info if they have mandatory attendence policies.

23

Phlosphr: Please tell me you’ve had (or at least dreamed about having) the following conversation with one of your students!

[ul]Student: But, prof; if I flunk this class, I’ll get put on probation. What should I do?

You: Don’t flunk it.[/ul]

eponymous: Aren’t you courting some kind of trouble by “disappearing” a student’s work? I’d think it would be better to just return it to the student with the comment

written on it.

24

Hard to speak for profs in general. I have complete latitude in setting grades and great control over setting and enforcing my own policies.

Cheers,

Professor K

25

You’re not gonna like real life. =)

Cheers,

Professor K

26

This is a hijack, but: Group work in real life is nothing like group work in school. There are many signficant differences between the two:[ul]
[li]In Real Life, everyone on the group doesn’t get the same grade. If I, has a programmer, am on a project that flops, and it’s obvious that I still was doing my piece well, I’m not gonna suffer serious repurcussions because of it (for the most part–there are exceptions, but those haven’t been my experience).[/li][li]In Real Life, someone outside the group is usually designated as the boss, and that person is in a position of accountable authority. At least on the group stuff I did in college, the TA or Prof. never said “So and so is the boss for this project.”[/li][li]In Real Life, it’s easier to take action against a fuck up.[/li][li]In Real Life, you have that wonderful concept known as a “scapegoat” at your disposal :)[/li][li]In Real Life, you (can–depends on how the Prof. works the assignment) get less choice over who you work with.[/li][li]In Real Life… There are jobs and lifestyles that don’t center around working closely with groups. Yay![/li][/ul]
I hated group work too. :slight_smile:

27

At least in college you can say “Well, they are adults. Fuck 'em.”

I teach Eng III AP (Language and Comp) my little children-on-the-cusp of adulthood are the laziest little fucks in the universe, bar none.

Actually, that isn’t fair. They aren’t lazy–in fact, many of them are over involved, if anything, in musical, in youth orginizatio, in three or four or five AP and pre-AP classes, in athletics. It’s admirable.

That said, for such busy little bees they have no time management skills and no self control. They can’t meet deadlines of any type. I know that’s part and parcel with being a teenager, but fuck if I know what to do about it.

The first day of this six weeks I handed them a calender and told them every due date they would have between now and XMas. They had a major assignment due today. Not even half turned it in. I don’t know what else to do. I understand that they are busy, but I give them time to work on projects in class and they spend it talking and carrying on. I stay late and come early for the ones that have no place at home to work, and offer rides when they have to take the bus. They commit to coming and then stand me up.

I build in an “effort” test grade that they can build by keeping orderly notes, by posting on our classroom message board, by coming to tutoring, by doing outside reading, or by doing any combination of the above that fits their personality and scheduling. A good third failed that grade.

The only place where I draw the line is late work. I don’t take late work.

By the math, you can pass my class simply by completing all assignments–you’ll get a C, but you will pass. Any effort at all will move that C to a B. But I still have a failure rate of around 40% with this bunch because they will not manage their time. The class motto seems to be “There’s plenty of time later”. Teachers that have been doing this much longer than I have have the same problem with this group–every class has its quirks, and this group won’t turn things in on time.

I am totally at a loss. The fact of the matter is, if half the AP juniors fail the class this year, I am going to have to do some fast talking to keep my positon–my only saving grace is that the same kids are also failing physics and history. I kept thinking that if i stuk to my guns they would learn that “Due on such-n-such” means “due-on-such-n-such”, but here it is almost the end of the first semester and still they don’t believe me.

28

I feel for the professors. I’ve been in college far longer than I ever planned on or than I even want to admit to anymore. In that time, I’ve fucked up on many occasions. I have the D’s and F’s on my transcript to prove it. But I recognized that in all those instances it was my fault: I didn’t go to class, I didn’t prepare well enough for the exams, I didn’t stay up on the studying, I flat didn’t care about anything, etc. I messed up; I owned up to it every time. I’ve never gone to a professor or teaching assistant begging for extra credit or some odd shot at redemption because I didn’t do my part as a student (I have asked about extra credit when I was a good student but just didn’t understand the material very well).

The professor of the MIS class I’m taking this semester (the program’s gateway course) has a reputation for being an evil instructor. I’ll admit he’s tough, but I’m surviving because I do the assignments, practice programming on my own, and attend lectures on a regular basis. A lot of my classmates bitch about him constantly. Most of them are the ones who haven’t done anything but cramming just prior to the midterm. I feel badly for the professor, because he is an interesting guy and, with the effort, most of those complaining would be doing well, too.

29

Metacom: There is one aspect of real life that is similar to the school group work. If the group doesn’t get the product sold, the product doesn’t sell & the group (the selling company) suffers.

30

I love the “school group work=real life” argument.

-If someone didn’t do their job at work and I complained to the boss, I didn’t get a googley-eyed, “Well, you have to learn to work with people” like I did on one notable trainwreck of a college project.

-If I did get a googley-eyed response, there was a procedure to complain to higher-ups and get the problem resolved.

-If I thought I was going to be grouped with morons who wouldn’t do any work, I could say “Oh, just let me do it, there’s no reason they need to be on it.” So at least they wouldn’t get the credit for my work.

-I was usually around people who wanted to be there, unlike most of my group projects in school. Failing that, I usually dealt with people who at least knew what they were doing, unlike most of my group projects in school.

-If I worked on my part and the others didn’t, that would be recognized and rewards/punishments doled out accordingly.

-No boss of mine has used group presentations as the way to get out of doing his job, the way a few wily professors have. (“Alright, you guys do presentations every week. I’ll stand over here and look wise.” Great!)

School made me think I hated working with groups, but it’s really morons I hated working with. I do shudder when a teacher starts the “Let’s all form groups…”

31

Hey, celestina, good to see you’re still on the boards. Haven’t seen you much lately.

If I may add my complaint – WHY does every single group doing a presentation in my drama class get this completely blank look when I remind them not only of what day they’re presenting, but in most cases which play they’re working on? Wouldn’t it occur to somebody that when you sign up for a presentation it’s a good idea to, you know, write down on your syllabus when it’s due and what it’s about?

So far nobody has topped the supreme silliness of the group working on A Doll’s House, who waited until 5:00 in the afternoon on the day before the presentation to get together and figure out what they were doing. This would have been bad enough, but they also spent an entire hour wandering around the library looking for each other and sending one another increasingly panicked e-mails of the “I’m in the computer lab on the third floor, where are you?” variety. I know this because they accidentally sent me copies of all the e-mails. It would have been hysterically funny if I hadn’t been so embarrassed for them. (Amazingly, four out of five of them did manage to find each other and pull together a creditable presentation.)

32

“They aren’t lazy–in fact, many of them are over involved, if anything, in musical, in youth orginizatio, in three or four or five AP and pre-AP classes, in athletics. It’s admirable.”

No, it’s not admirable. It’s horrible. They aren’t in school to learn how to play the triangle, or be an officer in the drag-racing society, or learn to be the best twirler on the cheerleader team. They’re there to learn how to…duh…read, write, think, evaluate, express opinions. They can party hearty all they like for me. I’m concerned with results.

The whole school system went to hell in a handbasket when some idiot decided that Putting-on-Band-Aids 101 or Balancing-a-Checkbook 101 or Being-Able-to-Touch-Your-Nose-with-Your- Tongue 101 should take priority over basic skills. Like understanding simple fucking English or being able to divide 10 by 4 without a calculator.

I’ve taught high school. I’ve taught college. I found it a huge pain in the ass. Happliy, I’ve now been in advertising for 20 years. I get money and respect, more than I imagined. Had I stayed in the education quagmire, I’d probably be broke and drinking about a fifth a day.

So what’s wrong with this picture? Read my lips: pay good teachers what they’re worth.

No? Too expensive? OK. You get what you pay for.

  • PW
33

Here’s to the hardass teacher!

Seriously, you guys are appreciated, and not only by students. When I worked in the writing center as a tutor, it was such a relief to me to have students come in with clear written guidelines for their essays. I could sit them down, outline what needed to be done, and help them get started. When they came back, I had my little checklist to go over - I knew what they needed to correct, or keep, or expand… It just made everything easier.

So ignore the idiots, and remember that there are people out there who probably still remember you fondly.

34

These, I love. But for Christ’s sake, people, if you want it in MLA/APA format, then know what you’re talking about and keep up with the format! My English prof–the one I complained about up above–wants our papers in MLA. Fine, dandy. So I do them in MLA and get them back with red marks for “formatting errors” that are in MLA style, just like she wanted. But see, she’s using the book from like 1982, and I (and everyone else) should somehow travel back through time and get a copy of it.

35

You have already told them exactly what they need to do to make the grade.

What they are actually asking is that you give them a way out of the consequences of their behavior.

If you give it to them, you are doing them a disservice. They need to be prepared for the real world. In the real world, there are often deadlines and requirements. Just as often, there are no ‘extra credit’ opportunities to make up for missing them.

Fail them.

36

I’ve got a medical problem and work with my school’s office for disabled students. I don’t need a lot of help, but–I’m not gonna be in class all the time. That’s my disabled person special concession, I get to turn in papers late and get to miss classes if I’m sick, which is going to happen with 100% certainty. If I couldn’t have this, I couldn’t attend school at all. As it is, I’m 22 and still years away from graduating with a BA, because I can’t take a full courseload.

This semester I’ve probably missed a whole month’s worth of classes in total, and it’s not because I wanted to miss them, it’s because I was busy throwing up and having violent bloody diarrhea and being completely unable to eat. I gave my papers from the disabled student office explaining things to my teachers, and most of them are very understanding and willing to work with me. But sometimes you get a teacher who is convinced that when any student misses class for any reason, it is a personal insult, and the student’s way of spitting on the class and the whole concept of college.

This semester I have one teacher who’s told me she’s doing me a favor when I turned in a paper a week late (it’s not a favor when the law SAYS this is what you do for me), demanded proof of my illness (which is none of her business and illegal besides) and otherwise made it clear she’s sure I’m faking it. It pisses me off, because I’m going to make a B I don’t deserve (Bs are not good grades in my book) since she’s unwilling to work with me or help me outside of class with things I’ve missed when sick. This is a class I should be good in, and I wouldn’t need a total of an hour’s worth of review before a test, just a little help with things that I couldn’t have gotten from the book. I don’t want to stir up trouble or name names, because she’s having a really rough time now herself with personal problems. Still, it drives me crazy to deal with her. I can’t wait for this semester to end. If it weren’t for her, I’d have had a good chance of a 4.0 GPA this semester, a personal best.

37

I’ve just found another damn plagiarized assignment. Will these people ever learn that if it’s on the Internet and they can find it, I can find it too???

And then there’s the gal who is a lousy writer but insists that she must get an A in my class so she can transfer to a private university. And what will she do there? Do they ever think about such things? Do they ever think?

38

In general, I usually return the item marked with a “0” with a short note referring them to the syllabus. I state in my syllabus clearly that if an assignment is not given to me in class, the assignment will not be accepted - that it, it will “disappear” and be as if the student never completed the assignment.

But you would be surprised how often this doesn’t a deter some student from not turning in assignments in class.

39

Eurk. Students who plagarise work are idiots. I had two last year who copied the assignments from each other, word for word, symbol for symbol, silly mathematical error for silly mathematical error. I reported it, and put into action the “what to do if one of your students is cheating” procedures. The pair of them tried to intimidate me into stopping the action. It didn’t work. Somehow, they though that if they confronted me, and told me I was lying and picking on them, I would suddenly stop them from being raked over hot coals. Yeah right.

And now, I have one student, who swears blind he’s handed his assignment in. So why do I not have it? Hmmm… Methinks you’re trying to pull one over on me, mainly because I’m a woman. Note - I’m not being silly here, but this guy appears to be one of those extreme devout Muslim types, who believes that women should be in the home. If he asks for help, and I respond, nine times out of ten, he will not believe a word I tell him - I have to get the text book, or as soon as I leave his desk, he’ll ask the other guy I teach with to re-explain it. :rolleyes:

40

Student: “What do I have to do to make a ‘B’ in this class?”

Prof. Pantellerite: “Buy a time machine, go back, and try again.”

Okay, not my most tactful moment and I was a first-year Lectuer, not a Prof., when that conversation took place, but I feel your pain, Phlosphr. At the University I worked at last year as a visiting faculty, I routinely had abysmaly low attendance in my intro class which resulted in abysmaly low grades. Nonetheless, around this time of year, they’d start showing up asking about “extra credit”. I hate extra credit–you either do what you are expected or not; how can you do anything “extra” if you haven’t done the “ordinary”? (So now that’s my extra credit policy, but I digress.) And after telling these students “no dice”, they’d still write unsolicited extra credit papers that they’d slip under my office door (even from students that hadn’t even asked me and been rejected in the first place)! These would, of course, go straight into the trash.

Regarding attendance policy, I’ve gone from: “Hey, dudes and dudettes–I don’t take attendance!” to “Your attendance is directly coupled with your final grade.” Attendance has improved: under the old policy, I could routinely expect less than 50% attendance on average, with numbers as low as… 2. Students, that is, no percent. Attendance has improved with my new policy, and it’s not 100% Evil–part of the guarantee is that if you have no unexcused absences, you will not fail the class. My rationale is that I require class participation (yes, even though it’s an Introductory Geology class–I’ve been gradually doing away with the lecture-only format), and that if you’re not present, you’re clearly not participating.

(P.S., my new University is much, much better than my last!)