If its 'Flame the Prof. day' then be prepared for 'Flame the student day' as well!

The BBQ Pit
61

Monty, I took eponymous’s comment to mean that he refuses to acknowledge work that was not turned in according to his requirements.

I have a prof who refuses to accept e-mailed assignments except by prior arrangement. Nothing wrong with that. If I were to e-mail an assignment on my own initiative, he would refuse to accept it, and I’d have to talk to him about it.

As long as a professor has a stated policy on how he wants work turned in, I have no problems if he does not acknowledge work not turned in according to that policy. I’m the one breaking the rules.

Robin

62

The first time I - as a student - became aware of this curious breed of person that would skip classes throughout a semester, hand in assignments late, and generally blow off the class until the very end - at which time he would come and beg for extra credit assignments - I was disgusted. That’s so wrong! That’s not fair to the professor, and not fair to me, the bright-eyed student who was managing his time well and producing honest work.

I’m no longer disgusted. I’m now one of them. After I saw how well it was working, and got a classmate to explain to me the proper technique, how could I not become a convert to this exciting new approach to taking classes?

Life is good now. I’ve got the thing down to a science - I have my crying-in-the-professor’s-lap speech memorized (it’s different for male and female professors), I’ve practiced my facial expressions in front of a mirror, and I’ve got a real good sense of what the professor wants to hear. I try not to actually lie, but will if necessary. I now miss virtually all of my classes each semester, I hand in half-done homeworks, and I do as well as can be expected on my exams after the maximum of five hours of study time I allot myself. Much of my free time is spent snickering quietly at the suckers who are hard at work for a grade that will probably be worse than mine.

Does it always work? No. There are the tough guys like Phlosphr who refuse to grant me any special treatment. But they’re rare, and fortunately I can usually tell who they are early enough to drop the class. And if not - well, to be frank, I’m willing to take a slightly lower GPA as an acceptable alternative to endless work and study.

63

Monty, I don’t accept late homework, either. If a student tries to turn in homework after the deadline without a valid excuse, I don’t accept it. If they leave it in my mailbox or slide it under my door, I return it ungraded, same as eponymous. If that’s suddenly a stunning violation of ethics, I missed the memo. :confused: I assign the homework, I set the deadline. Accepting late work does a disservice to students who made the effort to turn in the homework on time.

64

*Originally posted by Monty *

I apologize if I wasn’t clear. I have a clearly stated policy (it’s in my syllabus and I menion it several times throughout the quarter) that all assignments done outside of class are to be turned into me in class. Those are the only assignments I will accept. If a student decides to place an assignment in my mailbox or slide it under my door, then that student will not receive any credit for completing the assignment. It “disappears” in the sense that the student doesn’t get any credit for completing the assignment - they get 0 points (regardless of whether ot not they may have done the assignment correctly). It’s the same situation for those students who don’t even complete the assignment - 0 points.

I assure you that I do not throw away or destroy student work - even for those who happen not to follow my policy of turning in assignments. In fact, I am required to save all work (exams, papers, assignments, etc.) not picked up by students for at least two consecutive quarters (I generally hold onto student’s stuff for a year).

I probably shouldn’t have used the term disappears in the context above. I thought by putting disappears in quotes that most people would understand I wasn’t literally meaning the assignments would disappear (by throwing them away, for example). My mistake - I got caught up in the heat of the moment, so to speak (I often FEEL like making those assignments disappear by throwing them away; but I never do).

In fairness, I often will accept assignments from students other than my policy in the syllabus of they contact me beforehand and explain why they aren’t able to make it to class when an assignment is due. If a student calls me or emails me and says, for example “Hey, professor eponymous, I know assignment X is due in class today, but my car broke down and I won’t be able to get to campus until after class. Is it OK if I just leave it in your mailbox?”, I’ll usually give them credit for completing the assignment as they took the time and effort to let me know beforehand why they couldn’t be in class that day.

65

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Phlosphr *

Ava-Beth - I have never had a parent call me to discuss a grade, and probably never will have a parent call me, I work at a private liberal arts college where we have an honor code. Parents are well aware that their children reap what they sow here. **

Actually, I’m very impressed. That didn’t seem to be the way it was at my undergrad. Even in the MUSIC department where we were a pretty tight-knit group and our professors usually knew our parents. I sort of figured with the whole “My child is perfect! Why did you fail him??” craze going on, I’d expect even college professors to get some calls.

You’ve got a tough job, and I admire you for it, man. I’d eventually like to teach education courses in college (although I think I’d like to try my hand at being an elementary school principal first), but from my stint with education majors in college, they’re completely worthless and most of them are only becoming teachers because “Dude! We get the summers off!” (Yes, actual quote from my beginning teaching course.).

Ava

66

eponymous: Thank you. Yes, you were unclear–very unclear–in your earlier description of how you handled such a thing. You gave a very clear indication that the work disappeared, not that it was returned with a grade of zero on it. FWIW: here’s a cool way at least one professor I’ve had used to get Reality[sup]tm[/sup] to slap such students across the face: the department secretary would take any work that was to be dropped off for the instructors and run it through the time-stamp clock (the clock that stamps the time on the paper). When a student would attempt, contrary to the policy stated in the syllabus, to submit a paper in that manner to the professor concerned, the secretary would say, “That professor does not accept late work here. You’ll have to discuss it in person during his office hours & be sure to take the paper with you.”

Podkayne: The memo you missed is the one about the definition of disappears.

MsRobyn: I’ve no problem with people not acknowledging late work either, provided it’s stated in the syllabus. What I’ve a problem with, as is quite evident from my postings in this thread thus far, is someone destroying a student’s work. As eponymous has made it clear that he doesn’t destroy a student’s work, that’s cool.

67

Before adding comment, I should probably admit that I agree with Palewriter here on principle concerning extracurricular activities interfering with schoolwork. It shouldn’t happen; you’re in school to learn how to think critically and apply that to life. The problem is that a number of admissions committees don’t quite see it that way, no matter how much they claim they do.

Four years ago I was in a living hell trying to get accepted to college and currently I’m in a living hell trying to get accepted to graduate school, and, yes, extracurriculars and outside interests play a major role. However, the unfortunate truth is that schoolwork is a zero-sum game. For every moment that I’m doing something related to being a head resident assistant or tutoring other students on their writing, I’m not spending it on Blake or Beethoven, and unfortunately I’m afraid that may show in my GPA come semester’s end. I have dropped other activities like flies this semester, and while I seem to have reached a tenable balance between coursework/senior thesis/HRA/tutoring, it may very well be closing the barn door after the animals have buggered off. Chuck in a rise in vandalism on campus that I get to deal with, and the hospitalization of a partner on a major project for one of my classes, and it may become obvious why I’m awake at 3:26 on a Sunday morning still doing work (well, technically I’m writing this and doing laundry, but I was doing work up through 3:00).

The problem’s not any better in high school if you are looking into applying to any top-tier school. Good grades alone will not cut it unless you are a member of a disadvantaged minority group, have overcome tremendous adversity on the road to academic success, or are related to somebody who donated a building to the college/university you’re looking at. I am white, failed to be abused as a child, and have exercised poor choice in my ancestors. Hence, I am a member of the group from whom U.S. News and World Report makes a godawful amount of money off of (damn them) in its advice on how to get in to prestigious schools. And there is not a snowball’s chance in hell for anyone in my demographic to get in anywhere unless they have basically killed off the last vestiges of their free time in a flood of book clubs, academic and debate societies, varsity sports, etc.

It’s not an excuse for students who fail to do well out of laziness or who knowingly overcommit and shaft their schoolwork - Phlosphr, gotta say I sympathize, especially as I get people who just expect me to fix their papers for them in the writing center with no input on their part; there is absolutely no excuse for anyone who just doesn’t want to do the work but wants the elusive A - but there is another side. Colleges and universities are doing nothing to ameliorate the current admissions climate that dictates desperate measures on the part of applicants to distinguish themselves in some way; after all, schools only stand to benefit from the rise in their “prestige” after turning away the majority of its applicant pool. My work’s suffered as a result of my own idiocy concerning time management this semester, but there are sometimes things that draw student time away from academics and are more legitimate concerns.

And don’t think some of us don’t worry about it.

  • Madox, a little curious over Phlospher’s teaching post as she herself is at a northeastern liberal arts college.
68

Sorry, Monty, I thought that eponymous’ second post, where he says

made it clear what he meant by “disappear.” I seen now that he said “usually,” which one might still object to.

69

I had an addendance policy in my comp classes. Every day that the student showed up and did the work, he/she got ten points. Both parts are important, I think. Extra credit opportunities were worth 10 points (and there were only 3). I do this there are often students who work their butts off, but still have an absence that isn’t excusable (I overslept), that happens once or twice.

I have an attendance policy because the students who never/rarely come to class or never do the work, should not get the same grade as those who show up most/all of the time and work their butts off. It is certainly not an ego trip. I get paid whether my students pass/fail/show up/ never show up. The university that I worked for didn’t have a percentage of A’s system. They didn’t care as long as your grade distribution was fair over the whole time that you worked there–if you failed every student for a year, or gave all the girls A’s or failed everyone of a certain racial background, then they would care, but otherwise, the students got what they got. As a matter of fact, I used to say to arguing/sobbing students, “The Comp director’s office is right around the corner. If you think that I am being unfair, go talk to him. Make sure that you take the relevent documents.” None of them went.

70

Please ignore all spelling errors and typos in the above post. I haven’t been sleeping well.

71

First, Revoklaw…do you really think you are that far above the rest of your fellow classmates? Heh, you act like you discovered something invented yesterday.

Please, when students behave this way, it only makes us realize just how foolish you are. It is only a detriment to your character, trust me, you are not fooling anyone if you really are behaving that way. In essence that is the whole reality of this thread, some students do not understand that we (profs that care) are not fooled by your ruse. In fact it makes us get tired of students trying to pull the wool over our eyes…WE’VE SEEN IT ALL BEFORE FOLKS! YOU ARE NOT PARTICIPATING IN A NEW TRADITON
So humor us, come to class and pretend not to be smarter than your profs, just for 90 minutes please…:wink:

She?? :confused:

72

Can I complain about this, too? Nothing irritates me like the morons who argue constantly with the professor, especially when they’re wrong!

73

I think Madox is referring to herself in the third person in that sentence.

74

Many of my present undergraduates are nontraditional students who have families and jobs as well as their courses and required field placements. Part of my job is to help them figure out how to balance all of these elements. Since I teach both professional seminars and clinical content courses, I have opportunities to be lenient when warranted and to hold the line. In the professional seminars, I cut more slack if the student has communicated witrh me before the deadline. I’m fortunate in that the ability to communicate professionally is one of the competencies on which we evaluate students, so I am justified in using it as a criterion when a student is asking for unusual accommodation. In the content courses, I will take late work at a 5%/day grade reduction unless failure to complete the work on time holds up a group or class activity, in which case it’s a 0.

I do require group work, both because some people are better at it than they are at individual work so it gives them an opportunity to demonstrate work in their best modality, and because I (and the program) value the capacity to work collaboratively and harmoniously with others. Groups are responsible for notifying me, before the work is graded, if a member is not participating or is not playing well with others. If this is the case, I will investigate and give different grades if the problem isn’t resolved by my intervention. If students choose not to bring this to my attention, perforce they have chosen to share the group grade evenly (and in fact, they usually choose to carry the dead weight rather than involve me).

As implied above, I have a list of student competencies, both processes and contents, developed by the faculty to guide my preparation and assignments for each course. Beyond that I’m free to teach as I please. My university and college mandate that certain elements be present in a syllabus, including grading criteria, a non-discrimination/diversity statement, a student conduct statement, and information on requesting accommodations for disabilities. In addition, I have learned to go on at tedious length about the consequences for late work, for missing class or a test, that work must be typed in a 10 or 12 point font in black ink with the student’s name also typed, etc.

Last year I had an angry mob of students who insisted that I was capricious and unethical when I wouldn’t give credit to several groups who did something other than the 14 assignment possibilities I had spelled out for them as acceptable. Their argument: “It didn’t say in the syllabus that we couldn’t use the time to study for the midterm.” My argument: “Of the 14 possibilities I spelled out in the syllabus, none was anything like studying for the midterm, and you didn’t ask me beforehand. Group 5 asked me beforehand and I told them that it was not acceptable.” I had students jumping up in class reading professional ethics aloud to me, telling my teaching assistants that they felt “unsafe” with me because when they sent me nasty e-mails I replied to them point by point in very neutral language, going to my supervisor and screaming about me, etc. It was the worst teaching experience I’ve ever had (and I’ve been teaching university off and on since 1984).

75

Podkayne: Please avail yourself of any dictionary and learn what the word usually means.

76

Shoshana said:

This kind of behaviour would get a student on my dark side. Few have gone to such lengths with me, those who have usually end up droping my class.
I am an ethical man, my views are strong at time, but I remain ethical. I have had students in the past get very angry when I refuse to talk loudly or engage them in their argument. I find this quite often with the more stubborn students, those who get angry when I keep my cool and speak in a neutral manner. Some times I think to myself, …you sound like the kindergartner yelling at their class mate to give them back their red pencil :slight_smile:

Some students think they are so far above the rest…Tho I admit some can think this if they are infact a better student - most who are do not voice it.

77

There’s something about remaining calm that just makes people pissier. Pissyer? Whatever.

78

Its a control thing…when someone starts to think they are losing that battle, they get frustrated…

79

GMRyujin, yes, the ones who come late for midterms and finals are annoying. However, when class ends, if they haven’t finished the test, that is not my problem, now is it? :wink:

Fretful Porpentine, yeah. I’ve been crazy busy of late. Seems like I think I got one thing resolved, and then here comes some more shit. I do try to pop onto the boards when I can, though. :slight_smile:

[lecture mode on]

Revoklaw, I must say that I do not understand your thinking regarding attendance or your efforts in class. Just because lots of other folks–whom I might add do not strike me as being very intelligent–are skipping classes and then lying about why and turning in shoddy work, does not mean that everyone should jump on the bandwagon and do so. The only person that you hurt when you engage in the behavior you mention is yourself. By what you’ve written, you indicate that you do not possess the ability to think critically or even for yourself, and that is indeed sad.

I do not understand teachers who permit students to get away with unprofessional conduct, but how they choose to run their classes is their business. I do think that teachers and students who let things slide do themselves, the schools they work for, and society as a whole a disservice because they are not preparing properly the next generation of people to take their places in the workforce or to be productive citizens; they are cheapening the value of the school to which they are affiliated; and they are sending the false message that one should not have to be accountable for his/her actions. I think that not very many folks win in the long run from that.

Of course I do realize that folks go to college for different reasons. Some actually do want to get the education that they’re paying thousands of dollars for. Some want to party. Some think that if they can squeeze by with doing the bare minimum of work, then they should get their degree. Some don’t know what else to do with their time. And some, despite their best efforts not to learn, actually wind up learning. Granted, it might not be what they expected to learn. I imagine the list of reasons for why folks go to college goes on.

College should train you how to deal with people and situations that you will find in the work environment and in your personal life. And it should teach you how to think critically. Out in the real world, if you are unprofessional, irresponsible, and deceitful, you will not go far for long, if at all.

I do hope that you will reconsider your behavior and modify it accordingly.

[lecture mode off]

Well, if y’all ain’t figured it out by now, I am one of the tough teachers. Not much slides by in my classes because I have high expectations, and I expect that students conduct themselves in a professional and respectful manner towards myself, their peers, and the goals and procedures of my class. If they cannot do so, then they shouldn’t be surprised when they do not do well in my class.

80

One question: Are across-the-board mandatory attendance policies a recent thing? I hear plenty of people saying or implying that when they were in school 10, 20 or 30 years ago, there were plenty of classes you could pass by showing up for the midterm and the final. I’ve been taking 8-10 classes a year for the last 2 1/2 years, at two very different schools, and in all that time I’ve only had one class that didn’t have mandatory attendance.

By the way, the one class without mandatory attendance is easily the hardest class I have ever taken. I found out REAL FAST what happens when you skip a day. Actually, I sort of prefer it this way, since you’re forced to rely on yourself to either go to class or flounder. I’ve goofed off more than I should have, but I foresee myself shaping up fast.

I agree with spooje from page 1. In the long run, you’d be doing fools like these better by not coddling them.