And why do you think it was so important to teh Zionists for Israel to be carved out of Palestine rather than Germany or Brazil? I mean if anyone should lose land under the “spoils of war” theory taht some apologists seem to embrace, then why wasn’t Israel carved out of Austria and Germany? Could there be some religious significance to that area that made Zionists choose Palestine to begin with?
Were arabs mroe tolerant of jews than other parts of the world? If so then why do you think that changed?
Doesn’t make what they say true or false. Just means they have an agenda. There’s nothing wrong with having an agenda, of course, and everyone has one, but having an agenda means that you’re going to interpret facts in the way that’s going to promote your agenda.
It wasn’t. They fooled around with South America and Africa. They finally picked Palestine because the Ottomans could be bribed and the Kaiser, who was an Ottoman ally, seemed sympathetic and they hoped he would use his influence to win the Sultan over.
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
It wasn’t. They fooled around with South America and Africa. They finally picked Palestine because the Ottomans could be bribed and the Kaiser, who was an Ottoman ally, seemed sympathetic and they hoped he would use his influence to win the Sultan over.
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There was also already a substantial population of Jews living in the region. True, there was a substantial population of Jews living in Germany as well, but they were subject to more frequent and historically severe pogroms from the local population in Germany than they had been in the Palestine region of the Ottoman Empire.
Also, there’s no way the German government would have let the Jews of the world come to Germany and set up a self-governing region. Ottoman power was much weaker and less centralized.
Wait, are you saying that people started hating the jews because they bought land and cultivated it? Are you under the impression taht some significant prtion of the land that was purchased was desert wasteland before teh jews got there? Sure there were large parcels of neglected land that was cultivated by the Zionists but that had been going on for decades before the anti-semitism kicked in. The anti-semitism didn’t kick in until after WWI when it was apparent that the zionists not only wanted their own state in palestine, they might actually get it.
The antisemitism really kicked into full gear around the time Israel was created.
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Depends on what you mean by that. I think that much of the hatred towards the Jews stems from the same source as much of the hatred of the Jews anywhere…the fact that they were a deliberately isolated group of people who kept themselves apart from the local population, and thus provided easy targets. The fact that they fought back against early attempts to attack them in the Palestine region probably didn’t help endear them much to the locals either.
Its because they are an isolated minority (which has been true for a lot longer than we have seen this sort of antisemitism on the middle east) and because they fought back? So you don’t think zionism and the creation of the state of israel had anything to do with it?
Well, the way I see it, any time you bring up the holocaust or the history of jewish persecution, the natural palestinian reaction is “so why do we suffer for your past suffering at the hands of people on another continent” Any notion of past jewish suffering or the holocaust has no place in the discussion unless you want to imply that somehow the Palestinians are responsible for the holocaust.
I think Palestinians have to recognize that while Israel has no moral right to much of the land, they really have nowhere else to go, many (most?) Israelis were born in Israel and are as much a part of that land as anyone. And unless they would rather commit genocide than share that land with a prosperous neighbor, they must reach an accomodation. If you think Palestinians are genocidal lunatics then there is really no point in negotiations at all. Is that what you believe?
I think Palestinians must realize that the only sin greater than 5 million Palestinian refugees is 5 million Palestinian refugees and 5 million jewish refugees.
Next I think Israel must acknowledge that Israel has no inherent moral right to the land and stop with the settlement activity and negotiate in good faith rather than on “I have more guns than you and i kicked your ass in every war we have ever had” approach.
I understood him to mean the occupied territories, especially whehn they talk about settlement activity. Its a bit nitpicking to read it otherwise isn’t it?
And despite all that they manage to live as one nation. Funny how that works. perhaps the south africans, black and white just got along better than the Palestinians and the Israelis.
I thought he was talking about all the jews when he was talking about “displacing themselves” and about the settlement activity in the occupied teritories and jerusalem when he talks about Jewish settlers.
I don’t think that was the most obvious way tyo read what was written.
This is kind of obnoxious, isn’t it? Or does it somehow further the debate in a way that I don’t understand?
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]
Wait, are you saying that people started hating the jews because they bought land and cultivated it? Are you under the impression taht some significant prtion of the land that was purchased was desert wasteland before teh jews got there? Sure there were large parcels of neglected land that was cultivated by the Zionists but that had been going on for decades before the anti-semitism kicked in. The anti-semitism didn’t kick in until after WWI when it was apparent that the zionists not only wanted their own state in palestine, they might actually get it.
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Um, no it didn’t…the ‘anti-semitism’ started to kick in decades before that with the various riots and anti-Jewish pogroms launched against the Jews living in that area. And yeah…it had quite a bit to do with the fact that the land the Jews bought up they rather heavily developed, and that this made the land much more valuable. Where did you learn the history of the region from that you don’t know all this?? It’s incredible to me that someone participating in this thread didn’t know that attacks against Jews in the region happened long before WWII, and that the Jews started fighting back long before WWII…and that things just came to a head during and after WWII.
The Holocaust was only peripherally involved in what happened. The Jews in the region ALREADY wanted a sovereign nation (hell, from the WWI period at least), and they were already fighting with the locals over it long before the Holocaust happened. If you think that the Holocaust was the sum total of why there is an Israel today, or that this is the major bone of contention all I can say is I’m wasting my time discussing this with you, as there are some rather fundamental gaps in your understanding of the issues and history of the region.
Moral right? Now where else to go? What I believe?? WTF? Where did all this come from???
How do you suppose the Israelis got that land in the first place? I’m morbidly curious as to how you think all this transpired.
We were bribing Mubarak to be a dick and not be a dick at at the same time. No one in the State Department wanted the Muslim Brotherhood to have a shot at elections.
Israel wasn’t afraid to use nuclear weapons on Egypt before and I doubt they’d hesitate again if it really came down to it. The U.S. bribes any country it can when trying to keep people out of war if it is in our best interests.
Our relationship with Israel isn’t one-sided. Israel is not a pet.
They defended those borders because they had military presence everywhere. And it’s not fair to say, “Israel can defend those borders because they have a strong military, so who cares if some people are attacked by rockets and its in a constant state of war?” When Israel says defensible, it means, “preventing attacks”, not just “defending after attacks”.
Kind of like how Jordan stole the Jewish Quarter?
I most certainly will not say it is Israel’s fault that people blow themselves up. No. Israel has been dealing with attacks since…almost always.
We are talking about the West Bank, are we not?
All Arab countries that invaded in 1948 would, as they were in a fight for a ‘land grab’ and because of this, we now have five million mother fucking Palestinians without a state. They either deserted them or kept them in squalor.
Egypt has been the kindest, as it put infrastructure in Gaza and give Gazans aid. Israel has been wanting Egypt to take Gaza for a long time and they refused, so I donno, maybe this new border crossing thing could be good.
Or not, cause now Eliat is open to Gazans. :smack:
Because it was available. Also, the Balfour Declaration pretty much sealed the plan.
It wasn’t important for Israel to be created in Palestine? I know that Herzl explored various options including East Africa and it is rumored that he entertained thoughts of South America but Africa was being sold to the Zionist movement as a first step towards an eventual homeland in in Palestine and the South America reference is only rumor as far as I can tell.
Where did I say WWII? What is the deal with pro-zionists using “I know more than you” as their first line of defense? Yeah, I know zionism started before that but the riots you talk about all started after WWI and the Balfour Declaration, didn’t they.
You have a cite for the notion that the anti-semitism was a result of Jewish improvements to land? I know land purchases after the balfour declaration had something to do with it but the notion that it was the result of arabs getting mad that jews cultivated land and increased their value is news to me. Please cite. I would like to be enlightened by someone as knowledgable as yourself.
Are you saying that Israel would exist today without the holocaust?
Are you saying that people on THIS VERY THREAD haven’t brought up the holocaust in their defense of zionism?
By the way, where did I say “the Holocaust was the sum total of why there is an Israel today”?
Or are you deliberately misreading me?
I said that every time this debate starts, someone brings up teh holocaust as if it were a totem that drives away criticism of Israel. What its actually doing is trying to put critics of israel on teh side of the nazis. Frankly, it one degree of separation away from Godwinization.
[quuote]How do you suppose the Israelis got that land in the first place? I’m morbidly curious as to how you think all this transpired.
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They bought about 6% of it before 1948, they took the rest in a war in 1948 (and a bit more in several wars after that). At least that is my understanding. how do YOU think they got the land?
Whoa, when did Israel use nuclear weapons before? Or are you saying they would have used them before?
Israel isn’t the country I would describve as a pet in this relationship.
As far as i can tell, you cannot militarily prevent attacks short of eliminating your enemy either by killing him or making him no longer your enemy. So what line on the map do you think will PREVENT attacks?
I’m not sure what you mean by Jewish quarter but I recognize that the arab states stole land from teh jews and they should probably chip in to the restitution that the Palestinians eventually get.
So you think Israel is faultless. Gotcha. And therein lies the problem. No balance in your perspective.
I thought we were talking about the 1967 borders and as a result we were talking about who started the 1967 war (because some people were portraying this as Israel taking land after getting invaded rather than Israel taking land as a result of a war that they started).
I disagree. I think that arab nations that ejected Jews and stoel their land should chip in to the restitution fund but fighting Israel in 1948 was entirely justified.
Yeah, cuz Israel has not part in the suffering of Palestinians.
I think you and the palestinians have a very different definition of the word available.
And are they threatening to deny us access to those military bases going forward? Of course not, that’s not what you were talking about.
Here is your original post 26 that began this tangent:
You subsequently cleared up that you meant the US security when talking about secruity in the last sentence. I’ve been trying to figure out what the Israel Egypt border has to do with US security.
My point was that, while you deny it, you seem to think that our foreign aid should be contingent on how well Egypt serves Israeli interests and frankly I think that is a sentiment that runs a bit too deeply around Washington.
Damuri why do you keep thread-shitting by making multiple posts in a row rather than condensing them into just one or two posts.
Also, I have to say I’m utterly shocked that someone who’s as passionate about this issue as you are and spends so much time portraying Israel as this horribly evil country with no “moral right” to exist that you had never heard of the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem.
Dude, if you’ve never heard of the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem you really have no business having strong opinions about this conflict.
That’s like expressing strong opinions about Paris but never having heard of the Eiffel Tower or the Louvre.
Clumsy or inefficient posting styles do not qualify as “thread shitting” (although bitching about other posters’ posting styles might so qualify). This thread has sufficient hostility without commenting on extraneous stuff about other posters.
You spend an awful lot of time and energy telling other people they don’t have a right to opinions on Israel. That is an extremely ineffective form of argument.
I suppose that when you don’t have substantive responses, then some people just go with “you’re a poopyhead”
