If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Robert163

1- Yes, you are right, based upon the OT you can justify, tangentially, killing an abortion doctor

2- But Christ never calls for this

Lots of people vastly more knowledgable than you disagree and find it quite consistent.

You’ve just decided to ignore every part of the Bible that doesn’t agree with your view.

As already mentioned on several occasions, Jesus specifically said that all the laws of Moses had to be adhered to which amongst other things mandated all the horrible things you keep attributing to Muhammad, i.e. slavery, the killing of heretics and unbelievers etc.

You’ll notice how many theologians who are to this day viewed as the best and most distinguished Christian theologians believed this. Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine being the big examples.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@andros

The point is that people who do violence in the name of Christianity use their holy book to justify it. Can you at least accept that? A little?
.

Apparently not. He insists that the OT doesn’t count, nor do any of the parts of the NT in which it’s discussed how Jesus will come back to Earth and commit mass murder on an unheard of scale.

Certainly it makes sense for Christians to believe that if they murder “unbelievers” they are following God’s will because according to their Holy Book, their God is going to come back and do just that.

[tomndebb]

@Robert163

Of course you are not going to. You are a religious apologist and whatever violence is called for by the text you are going to ignore. Whatever actual deaths from violence perpetuated by believers, you are going to ignore.

You keep misusing the word apologist and making your arguments appear dumb.

Nothing I have posted could be considered an apologia for any religion, regardless of your attempts to twist my statements.

Similarly, nothing I have posted could be construed as excusing religious behavior if one chooses to misuse the word apologist.

I have pointed out that religion does play a part in the actions of various societies, (including the violence they perpetrate), only noting that your attempt to gloss over all the other factors that affect violence is nothing but hand-waving.

Please quote the passage where I excused any violence or deaths or else stop making your silly attacks that have nothing to do with what I have posted.

[Robert163]

@Ibn_Warraq

Lots of people vastly more knowledgable than you disagree and find it quite consistent.

You’ve just decided to ignore every part of the Bible that doesn’t agree with your view.

As already mentioned on several occasions, Jesus specifically said that all the laws of Moses had to be adhered to which amongst other things mandated all the horrible things you keep attributing to Muhammad, i.e. slavery, the killing of heretics and unbelievers etc.

You’ll notice how many theologians who are to this day viewed as the best and most distinguished Christian theologians believed this. Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine being the big examples.

I am ignoring?

what about the 8886 people killed by Sunis is 2011? I noticed that you quite conspicuously forgot to comment on that on that. Noooo… you much rather talk about how ignorant I am about Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine.

Hmmmmm…

[Robert163]

@tomndebb

I have pointed out that religion does play a part in the actions of various societies, (including the violence they perpetrate), only noting that your attempt to gloss over all the other factors that affect violence is nothing but hand-waving.

Yeah, that’s called evasion… look, over there!!!

[Robert163]

@tomndebb

I have pointed out that religion does play a part in the actions of various societies, (including the violence they perpetrate), only noting that your attempt to gloss over all the other factors that affect violence is nothing but hand-waving.

So, in countries with political unrest, economic unrest, violence, other forms of chaos and instability… people are going to be desperate and afraid. What do desperate and afraid people do? Well, one thing they commonly do, one of the MOST common things that they do, is reach out to religion. For stability. For comfort. For guidance. What happens when they reach out to a religion that treats women like second class citizens and advocates violence and suspicion towards people “not of the book”?

What do you think happens, Tom? You’ve already said you do not deny that Islam can sometimes encourage violence. I would assume that you also accept that in countries with Sharia Law women are second class citizens, right?

According to your very own objections you have actually wound up making my case - for - me. I’m sure you will find some way to deny it. But that is precisely what you have done.

[tomndebb]

@Robert163

What???

Then what the hell have you been pounding on and on about for the past week???

The fact that my position has been clear and repeated consistently in that time while you seem to have not even figured it out would seem to indicate that you have no interest in actually understanding the situation and are just here to shout “Islam bad!” over and over again. That is not the spirit of the Straight Dope. We are supposed to be fighting ignorance, not promoting it.

Go read my first post in this thread. This time, instead of coming back with somee off-topic demand that I refrain from doing something I have not done, actually pay attention to the information I provided.

You and a few others are trying to claim that all the violence we see originating among Muslims is due exclusively from, (or primarily to), their religion.
Not having a need to fear Islam as the new “communism”-like boogeyman, I have noted that religion has played a role in prompting the violence, but that are so many other factors, (and so many Muslims who are not violent, even though they follow the same religion), that your “Islam did it” screed is unfounded and silly.

If you spent some time actually learning to understand the various sects of Islam and the various political/cultural/historical seeds to the violence, it would do you good.

[tomndebb]

@Robert163

So, in countries with political unrest, economic unrest, violence, other forms of chaos and instability… people are going to be desperate and afraid. What do desperate and afraid people do? Well, one thing they commonly do, one of the MOST common things that they do, is reach out to religion. For stability. For comfort. For guidance. What happens when they reach out to a religion that treats women like second class citizens and advocates violence and suspicion towards people “not of the book”?

What do you think happens, Tom? You’ve already said you do not deny that Islam can sometimes encourage violence. I would assume that you also accept that in countries with Sharia Law women are second class citizens, right?

According to your very own objections you have actually wound up making my case - for - me. I’m sure you will find some way to deny it. But that is precisely what you have done.

You really don’t read with much understanding.

[Salvor]

I think it’s time for the scion of Islamic understanding to chime in.

Ahmed’s Clock Block | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)

And as usual he’s right on this

[Robert163]

@tomndebb

You really don’t read with much understanding.

You really don’t either

[tomndebb]

@Robert163

Yeah, that’s called evasion… look, over there!!!

So, when i note multiple factors that have led to violence and provided the historical events that preceded it and cultural factors that have helped shape opinion, I am “evading” the subject and when you scream “ISLAM BAD!” over and over again without any consideration for all the other factors involved, you are addressing the issue.

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

[Robert163]

@tomndebb

The fact that my position has been clear and repeated consistently in that time while you seem to have not even figured it out would seem to indicate that you have no interest in actually understanding the situation and are just here to shout “Islam bad!” over and over again. That is not the spirit of the Straight Dope. We are supposed to be fighting ignorance, not promoting it.

Go read my first post in this thread. This time, instead of coming back with some off-topic demand that I refrain from doing something I have not done, actually pay attention to the information I provided.

You and a few others are trying to claim that all the violence we see originating among Muslims is due exclusively from, (or primarily to), their religion.
Not having a need to fear Islam as the new “communism”-like boogeyman, I have noted that religion has played a role in prompting the violence, but that are so many other factors, (and so many Muslims who are not violent, even though they follow the same religion), that your “Islam did it” screed is unfounded and silly.

If you spent some time actually learning to understand the various sects of Islam and the various political/cultural/historical seeds to the violence, it would do you good.

Oh, yeah, “radical” Islam. Know another way to define “radical” Islam. Sharia Law. All the good Muslims you keep yammering on and on and on about take place in countries that have the force of democratic Law to protect us. All the places without that, all the places that practice Sharia Law in force, look like pretty horrible places to live.

That is the true expression of Islam. What happens when you remove all restraint and mandate that laws be run from the Koran/Hadith.

[Robert163]

@tomndebb

So, when i note multiple factors that have led to violence and provided the historical events that preceded it and cultural factors that have helped shape opinion, I am “evading” the subject and when you scream “ISLAM BAD!” over and over again without any consideration for all the other factors involved, you are addressing the issue.

No, you’re “contributing factors” argument is defunct

So, in countries with political unrest, economic unrest, violence, other forms of chaos and instability… people are going to be desperate and afraid. What do desperate and afraid people do? Well, one thing they commonly do, one of the MOST common things that they do, is reach out to religion. For stability. For comfort. For guidance. What happens when they reach out to a religion that treats women like second class citizens and advocates violence and suspicion towards people “not of the book”?

What do you think happens, Tom? You’ve already said you do not deny that Islam can sometimes encourage violence. I would assume that you also accept that in countries with Sharia Law women are second class citizens, right?

According to your very own objections you have actually wound up making my case - for - me. I’m sure you will find some way to deny it. But that is precisely what you have done.

[tomndebb]

@Robert163

Oh, yeah, “radical” Islam. Know another way to define “radical” Islam. Sharia Law. All the good Muslims you keep yammering on and on and on about take place in countries that have the force of democratic Law to protect us. All the places without that, all the places that practice Sharia Law in force, look like pretty horrible places to live.

That is the true expression of Islam. What happens when you remove all restraint and mandate that laws be run from the Koran/Hadith.

Another example of your tenuous grasp of logic.

I have not made any series of references to “good Muslims.” That is your sort of language and I would prefer that you not attempt to paint me with your prejudices.

(By the way, Sharia simply means a philosophical approach and there are multiple versions of Sharia Law.)

At any rate, there are dozens of Muslim countries filled with Muslims who respect both their religion and the concept of self-rule. Very few Muslim countries have chosen to establish their law based on one of the versions of Sharia. So, you are simply playing “No True Muslim” by trying to imply that if they have not adopted one of the versions of Sharia Law, they are not really Muslims.

Logic fail.

[tomndebb]

@Robert163

No, you’re “contributing factors” argument is defunct

It might have been if if you had actually bothered to provide a historical reference that demonstrated your claim. Making up hypothetical paths to violence is nice, but if you cannot demonstrate that your scenario has happened in all the places where violence is occurring, you are simply arguing from assertion.

You have assertions with no facts.
Fail.

[tomndebb]

It is getting late and I am not interested in a debate with no facts or logic.

I might check in again, tomorrow.

[Robert163]

@tomndebb

By the way, Sharia simply means a philosophical approach and there are multiple versions of Sharia Law.

Yes, I realize this Tom. I am neither as stupid nor as uninformed as you think I am.

At any rate, there are dozens of Muslim countries filled with Muslims who respect both their religion and the concept of self-rule. Very few Muslim countries have chosen to establish their law based on one of the versions of Sharia.

Yes, but Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan

You know, places where they DO choose to enact sharia law, as law, not as a “philosophy”.

I am aware there are “dozens” of countries who have a large Muslim population that do not practice Sharia Law, as Law. But not Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan… which are all run exactly and precisely as proscribed by the Koran/Hadith.

And thus we come to your definition of “good Islam”. Those Muslims who “philosophically ignore” the parts of the book that proscribe Sharia Law. In other words, Islam practiced with restraint.

[Robert163]

@tomndebb

It is getting late and I am not interested in a debate with no facts or logic.

I might check in again, tomorrow.

Well I wouldn’t call a debate where one of the key points is that Muslim terrorists killed 8,886 people - in one year - a debate devoid of fact or logic. In fact, I’d call that your refusal to - acknowledge - fact and logic.

[Robert163]

@tomndebb

It might have been if if you had actually bothered to provide a historical reference that demonstrated your claim. Making up hypothetical paths to violence is nice, but if you cannot demonstrate that your scenario has happened in all the places where violence is occurring, you are simply arguing from assertion.

You have assertions with no facts.
Fail.

Oh yes, for a religious apologist to accept the following statement as true, I’m going to need a MOUNTAIN of “facts” to support my claim. After which you will quickly declare, well, that’s not the - type - of Islam I am talking about, see, robert, you big dummy, there are different sects within Islam, dontcha know???

Anyway, here we go:

So, in countries with political unrest, economic unrest, violence, other forms of chaos and instability… people are going to be desperate and afraid. What do desperate and afraid people do? Well, one thing they commonly do, one of the MOST common things that they do, is reach out to religion. For stability. For comfort. For guidance. What happens when they reach out to a religion that treats women like second class citizens and advocates violence and suspicion towards people “not of the book”?
Do you really want “facts” to support the idea that desperate people reach out for something to cling to?

[Trinopus]

@Robert163

Well I wouldn’t call a debate where one of the key points is that Muslim terrorists killed 8,886 people - in one year - a debate devoid of fact or logic. In fact, I’d call that your refusal to - acknowledge - fact and logic.

And Christianity killed millions, in times gone by. It wasn’t all Christians, just some very militant ones, but they did the deed.

You keep focusing on Islam as if it is unique among the world’s religions. It isn’t. You aren’t succeeding in adhering to a logical pattern of debate here. You accuse others of distraction, but you have never managed to present a focused argument of your own.

Why do millions of Christian murders not count against Christianity, but 8,000+ Islamic murders counts as evidence that Islam itself is depraved?

Do you accept that religions come in different denominations, some good, some bad? Do you accept that cultures, societies, and civilizations can change over time, some growing wiser and more mature, others sinking into a lower moral status?

Islam, specifically, was thrown into chaos by the incursions of Mongols, in somewhat the same way that Europe was thrown into chaos when Rome fell. Why do you make excuses for Rome, but condemn Islam as intrinsically rotten?