Wow, project much? My dad is very conservative and religious. I by no means think he’s stupid. And I *never *said “Because people are stupid,” so I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth otherwise.
Evangelical Christians are for the most part conservative because of social issues, not economic. My dad is a case in point. Everyone in his church are cases in point.
Or do you really not want people to answer your question? Is this just one of those things where you have a theory and you’re going to do everything in your power to prove it by gosh, no matter how anyone answers. I’m not going to argue with someone who doesn’t debate honestly.
That’s “fare”, as in “to get along, or travel”. “Fair” means “even”, as in “Fair and Balanced”. Although I can see where you could be unclear on the meaning of the word, given how often you see it in that context.
That’s sort of like saying “Given a right triangle whose other two sides are length 3 and 4, what’s the length of the hypotenuse? Please try to avoid the answer ‘5’.”
Re-read my post. I didn’t actually say that, although I can see I could have been clearer. I was repeating a common argument I hear from others (would have been better if I’d put it in quotes), although I agree with it to some extent. The limit of my agreement is that of course “everyone” doesn’t want to be rich, and still less realistically expect to be.
I’ve talked to evangelicals-- white ones in my church-- and we’ve debated this. I ask why they vote for McCain/Bush etc, and they’ve actually said they’d vote Democrat if Democrats would stand up for the unborn and not get so into gay rights. They honestly believe it’s more important to support issues that are more “spiritually” (or eternaly) right than “physically” (or temporaly) right.
The Republicans can unify their base more solidly with racism and fears of abortion, secularism and gay marriage, i.e. for the sizable chunk of the electorate who cast their vote based on a single issue, the Republicans have the edge.
I would guess that the tea party types represent the first significant break within the Republicans for several decades. Ostensibly, they care solely about economic issues and are indifferent to the wedge issues listed above, though the press attention tends to go to the ones willing to make the most outrageous statements. I’m mildly curious if further schisms are in store. Which of the tea-party-courting candidates (if any) is the most fiscal-conservative/social-liberal, I wonder. That could prove interesting.
No one said anything about voting for a candidate who positions match their own exactly. We’re talking about voting in one’s self-interest. Politics in the U.S. is not all that complex. Overwhelmingly, people vote in their own self-interest, and self-interest is usually monetary. This is why you see the party breakdowns you do. For example, you will find that the people who tend to vote Republican, who are opposed to raising taxes and expanding many social programs, do so because the burden for said programs would fall on them while they’d get little to no use of said programs. Furthermore, you will find that people who tend to vote Democrat, who are in favor of raising taxes and increasing many social programs, would either be the recipient of said programs (this is pretty much why Blacks*, and the poor in general, overwhelmingly vote Democrat) or not have to shoulder the burden of the cost for said programs.
In summary, when people say that individuals vote for the Republican party even though it’s not in their self-interest, they don’t know what they’re talking about. People who vote Republican do so because it’s in their best interest to do so. I’ve seen it joked about how the Tea Partiers are mostly middle-class white men, but it’d make sense, since most new taxes would fall of them.
Republicans are better at winning elections than Democrats. That doesn’t translate into them promoting policies that favor a larger fraction of the electorate, just that they’re good at convincing more people that this is the case.
In the case of the debt ceiling fiasco, I’d argue that the Republicans’ desire to win future elections has in fact lead to them to favor policies that significantly hurt a large fraction of the electorate. However, because they are good at winning elections, I don’t think they care – I believe they are counting on their ability to spin the facts to their favor down the road to recast the facts of this mess to at least seem like both parties’ fault. It’s up to us as an electorate to hold officials accountable for these types of things and not let them rewrite history.
So you weren’t looking for a debate? You’re summarizing your findings already? Why even ask the question if you don’t want an honest debate with other opinions different from yours?
I was responding to someone’s post. It isn’t anything I haven’t said before in other posts. I’m still waiting for some honest answers which simply don’t boil down to “Because people are stupid and aren’t voting in their own interests!”, which is an intellectual cop-out at its worst, not to mention simply untrue.
Btw, an opinion, just so you know, can be wrong (i.e., “I think the sun hot pink!”).
Its a charming faith that they have. You see it here a lot, another new one comes along, and simply states the standard talking points drill in the bland assurance that as soon as you read them, you will stop dead in your tracks and say “Really? Wow, that changes everything! Gosh, if I had known I was supporting socialist big-government tyranny, I never would have done it! Gee, thanks, TightyRightyMan!”
I daresay someone who votes based on a single issue, be it gay marriage, abortion, capital punishment, what have you, is not automatically stupid. Perhaps a bit short-sighted, or they’ve figured that they don’t much care what government does, except on that one issue.
Anyway, there was a time when Democrats could automatically count on the votes of union workers and southerners and whatnot, and there may come a time when the current voter base of the Republicans fractures or evaporates. I expect the parties to evolve or die.
You’ve been *given *honest answers, by me for one, that don’t boil down to “Because people are stupid.” I have never said that, and I gave you an honest answer as to why I think people can vote for Republicans even though it still goes against their economic well-being. Whether you choose to actually listen to that, well that’s up to you. But again, this seems like a really dishonest way to debate.
Ask question.
People give you answers.
Accuse those people of saying something they didn’t say, or answering in a way that’s unacceptable to you.
Repeat.
I, for one, am done going beyond step 2 for you.
ETA: Oh wait, do you think that when a Liberal says “religious” he or she means “stupid?” Think again.
Confidence men will tell you that smart people are easy to deceive. All you have to do is let him believe that he is outsmarting you, and you can take every dime he’s got.
First and foremost, you said that Republicans have the market cornered on the religious. Not to insult you, but that’s just stupid. Catholics make up a reliable voting bloc for Democrats, and they’re numerous. Blacks are generally the most religious group in the U.S. and also form a steady Democratic voting bloc. So too, do Jews. What do you have to say about that?
Anyway, you made a statement about people caring more about social issues than their economic situation, to which I made a remark, to which you provided a non-response. Therefore, I’ll say it again. Your statement is largely untrue. For one, a minority of people base their votes solely on abortion and gay marriage (the latter of which is likely to gain Democrats a net). Secondly, explain to me why Blacks don’t vote for Republicans? They’re more socially conservative than White Democrats and are in fact closer to Republicans in this regard. If, as you say, people are willing to vote against their economic best interests in order to be “right by God” as it relates to abortion and gay marriage, then why aren’t Blacks voting Republican? Do they not care about being “right by God” as much as they care about their economic situation?
But yeah, you’re right. No one has called people stupid. Just “ill-informed” or some other euphemism which amount to “People are stupid”.
If they were simply ill-informed, that’s one thing. That they are deliberately misinformed is a whole 'nother thing. Unless, of course, you sincerely believe that Sharia law is a desperate threat to our Republic. And if you don’t, then you are compelled to the conclusion that people who are exploiting that fear are malignant intelligences. As I do.
Okay, let’s assume all the responses are wrong. Why does the OP believe that Republicans have won a majority of federal elections since 1980 (a rather conveniently chosen date, as has been pointed out) if it’s not to serve the interests of the rich? Abortion is still legal. Gay marriage is coming soon to a state near you. Porn is still legal. School prayer is not mandatory. The frequency of capital punishment has not returned to its 1950s levels. On what social issues have the Republicans actually accomplished anything?
I’m not saying they haven’t - I’m just curious if the OP feels the Republicans have won a majority of federal elections since 1980 because they deserved to, and based on what achievements.
I suppose guns still being legal might be considered an accomplishment. Holding back communism, or something, likewise.
An article I read a long time ago called it “The Big Lie”. Down deep, almost everyone believes that they are, at best, merely temporarily embarrassed millionaires. They may not be rich right now, but they’re going to be someday. The “Lie” is, of course, that most people actually stay around the tax bracket to which they were born (statistically speaking).
And since they’re all going to be rich, why would anyone vote for policies that will, eventually, take their hard-earned money from them? When they get rich, they want to stay rich, and all those other people who want to take the sweat of their brow from them can go take a flying leap.
In other words, it’s optimistic self-interest at best, greed at worst.
Rick Perry had a nice coming out party at a religious fundamentalist gathering this weekend. It is not the Catholics, but the fundies who vote in a bloc for the Repubs. They also have cornered the anti abortion voters. They too are mostly religious based. There is definitely a religious component in the Repub party.