If Russia had to develop the atomic bomb on their own, how long would it have taken them?

It seems generally accepted that Russia developed the atomic bomb after they acquired the plans from spies. I’d like to ask if anyone here has any idea if Russia had never acquired those plans and had to do all the work from scratch, how long would it have likely taken them and when would they have likely achieved parity with the US in regards to nuclear weapons?

I tried to research this question myself by going to www.ask.com and entering the question:

If Russia had not acquired atomic bomb by espionage how long would it have taken them?

I got the following results. But I don’t think the answer was given to that specific question. However, there were some very informative questions listed.

The following is a link to the answer I found on that site:

http://www.ask.com/web?q=if+russia+had+not+acquired+atomic+bomb+by+espionage+how+long+would+it+have+taken%3F&qsrc=0&o=0&l=dir&qo=homepageSearchBox

Here is a link to some other info I found about this from PBS:

http://www.pbs.org/redfiles/kgb/inv/kgb_inv_ins.htm

But I’d like to know if anyone here has any opinion as to just when Russia would have achieved parity with the USA (in regards to nuclear weapons) if they never got any of the plans as a result of espionage.

If anyone here would like to take a guess, I would be interested in hearing what you have to say - even if it’s just a hunch.

I’m curious about this issue because of something that was said on the FX Network’s TV show, “The Americans”. One of the KGB officers referred to the A Bomb in the following way. They said that some information acquired by a Russian operative was the greatest espionage breakthrough since Russia acquired the plans to nuclear weapons from one of their operatives.

They never claimed the Rosenbergs gave any of the plans to Russia. I would be very interested to know if anyone here has any opinions as to just how much information was given to Russia by Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

The Russians had excellent physicists and engineers - some of the best in the world. They were also not shy about throwing limitless resources at a problem. Without the espionage, it would have only taken them only a few years longer (IMHO).
Here’s an interesting article:

Richard Rhodes Dark Sun: The Making Of The Hydrogen Bomb discusses where the Russians were in terms of development and how the espionage helped them. It also discusses the Rosenbergs.

I have seen it convincingly argued that the atomic bomb was invented only once - every successor who made one had access to the most critical design aspects already established by the US. But in the end it was only an engineering exercise and any country with high-level technical expertise and the budget could have duplicated the effort eventually.

There’s an analysis ( here’s a start - Venona project - Wikipedia ) Julius did provide some important information. One article I read suggested that Ethel was a bluff. To get Julius to talk and give up his accomplices, they charged Ethel too. She apparently knew what he was up to and probably helped, but not as deep as the extent Julius was. The authorities bet Julius would cave in to save his wife. They were wrong. He didn’t. Priorities…

Until all this was declassified, the Rosenberg kids spent a long time trying to convince people that their parents did nothing wrong and were railroaded. They convinced quite a few people. they too were wrong.

The Russians probably saved themselves a lot of dead ends by following the lead of the USA and knowing what would work. Of course, the biggest question of the whole Manhattan project was always - when all is done, will this do what we think? Everyone knew the answer to that question by 1946. The other biggest issue was how to purify U238. Even a very vague and high-level answer probably was sufficient to point the USSR in the right direction.

The basic science is pretty well known. It’s mostly a question of details and engineering.

The United States was trying to build a working bomb first and fast. So they tried out a lot of different methods simultaneously. They might try out ten different methods and find that six didn’t work. And of the four that did work, one produced better results than the other three. So that was the best method overall.

The Soviets could have duplicated this process if they had needed to. Or they could have gone the slower route of trying out different methods one by one. All their spies did was make them more efficient by passing on what the Americans had tried and the results of what did and didn’t work.

So it’s hard to say how long it would have taken the Soviets to build a bomb without the information they got from their spies. It depends on how fast they wanted results. If they had been willing to commit the resources they probably could have duplicated our entire research program with all its hits and misses in about the same time we did.

Wasn’t Klaus Fuchs, an actual physicist who actually worked on the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos, at least as significant a spy as the Rosenbergs? Anyway, according to the Wikipedia article on him, Fuchs’ information did not help the Soviets all that much, largely because Beria (Stalin’s spymaster) did not fully trust his information (or that of other spies). It says that

(although, as always with Wikipedia, there is a bunch of hedging).

Forever. The obstacles were neither scientific nor engineering per se, but political and psychological. Stalin was incredibly paranoid, and did not trust the scientists. (That is why he put Beria, if anything more paranoid, in charge of the Soviet project.) The only reason he was willing to spend in the way needed to build a bomb was because he was assured it was pretty much guaranteed to work, since the design would be copied directly from the successful American bomb. It’s also probably the only reason anyone clever was willing to work on the Soviet bomb, since failure in Stalin’s regime would’ve meant a one-way trip to the gulag – if you were lucky.

Suppose Stalin had not had a guaranteed working plan in hand in 1944? What would he have done when the bombs went off in 1945? He would certainly have pushed forward Soviet atomic research a little, since the American bombs were impressive. But keep in mind Soviet Russia was unbelievably devastated after the war, and unlike Hitler Stalin was not a believer in superweapons that would Change Everything. His first priority would have had to have been restoring the Soviet industrial plant and sustaining the Red Army as far forward as he could’ve done. As details of the Manhattan Engineering District project leaked out (or were obtained by espionage) one thing that would’ve been clear is the scale of the industrial project. That would have dissuaded Stalin from too much emphasis on his own project, first because of the daunting commitment of resources needed, and secondly because it would have strongly suggested (as was indeed the fact) that the Americans had very few more bombs in reserve. Stalin would’ve had to balance the huge expense necessariy to recreate the MED with what that could buy in terms of conventional weapons in Eastern Europe.

Throw in the fact that Stalin was, by that time, a master at manipulating fairly gullible Western leaders (excepting Churchill, who was rarely fooled by Uncle Joe), and he would’ve already taken the measure of Truman at Potsdam and found the latter an easy mark, as well as timid and untried on the international stage. I think Stalin would’ve pushed the bomb project forward only gently, with minimal resources, while working furiously to rebuild Soviet industry and sustain the Red Army’s conventional strength, and counted on bamboozlement and bluff to keep Truman from pressing the temporary American nuclear advantagement.

He would then have observed the extremely rapid American demobilization, the faintheartedness with respect to Eastern Europe’s occupation by the Red Army – remember, that happened before the Americans knew the Soviets had a bomb (1949) anyway – and then the American refusal to use the bomb in Korea, and I suspect that would have reinforced his confidence that he need not flirt with bankruptcy to duplicate the bomb as fast as possible. We can also imagine that if the Soviets did not have a bomb, the American left would’ve been much more effective in pressing for a moratorium on American nuclear weapons development, or even for some kind of international stewardship (a thing many nuclear scientists and some military leaders openly advocated anyway). Stalin would’ve certainly kept that pot well stirred, e.g. made many noble speeches about how his country would gladly give up its nuclear ambitions in exchange for international guarantees. Imagine how attractive the possibility of keeping the nuclear genie bottled up would’ve been to a war-weary American population.

It gets a little hazy towards the end of Stalin’s life, however. Those who knew him say it was very likely he was planning a war of conquest in Europe, probably to acquire the remainder of Germany, by 1955 at the latest. Would he have done that without a bomb, knowing the Americans had one? Maybe, if he was convinced the American arsenal had atrophied, if there was no means to deliver them to the Motherland (it is not clear American strategic bomber development would have proceeded as fast if there were no nukes to be delivered by them), or if nuclear weapons had gone into the hand of the UN. Or maybe the Soviet nuclear program would’ve delivered a Nagasaki-level bomb by 1955, and he could’ve started the war anyway, in which case some fair chunks of Poland and Germany would probably now be like Chernobyl, with “exclusion zones” around them.

But let us assume Stalin dies on schedule, in 1953, and a Soviet bomb has still not emerged. In that case – I can see Stalin’s successors declining to press the matter forward vigorously. None of them were as interested in full-on military conquest as Stalin, and most were not nearly as paranoid. I can see them accepting American monopoly (well, Anglo-Franco-American triopoly) on the bomb the way they accepted American victory in the race to land on the Moon, so long as the American nuclear program remained fairly low level itself. And I think the American program *would * have remained low level, if not atrophied, in the absence of competition with the Soviets. Look what happend to the American space program after the Soviets quit the race after Apollo 11. Recall that even with a Soviet bomb, the Americans almost didn’t pursue the hydrogen bomb.

I’m confused. Were there two Trumans at Potsdam? Because this doesn’t sound like the one I’m familiar with.

Potsdam was Truman’s first outing on the international stage and everything I’ve heard about Stalin indicates he was a real maniac. I would have been scared to deal with Stalin.

I wonder just how many times Stalin had ever been out of Russia and if Potsdam was his first meeting with other leaders outside of Russia too.

Tehran?

The Tehran Conference began Nov 28, 1943 and lasted for 4 days - until Dec 1, 1943.

At that time, it still was not clear who was going to win the war. It appeared the Allies would win. But the Nazis were working on some miracle weapons. So, the issue was far from decided.

In any case, there was about 18 months between the Tehran and Potsdam Conference. So Stalin would have had some experience dealing with the leaders from the other Allies by the time he met with Roosevelt and Churchill at the Potsdam Conference.

I took a quick look through Wikipedia and it would seem that most of the time Stalin spent outside of Russia appears to be during the many wars in which he participated and I don’t see much evidence that he was discussing diplomatic affairs during those wars.

Potsdam and Tehran may have been outside of the Soviet Union but they were both inside the Soviet zones of occupied countries.

But I don’t really see what people expected from Truman at Potsdam. Was he supposed to punch Stalin in the face until he agreed to withdraw his troops from Eastern Europe? We didn’t give Eastern Europe to the Soviets; the Red Army took it.

The Soviet spies were probably good at reporting back things like “previously reported method A didn’t work” and “material z works better than material y for this purpose”. So they probably helped to save the Soviets time, money, and materials by pointing out attractive seeming but ineffectual paths.

I am amazed at the incredible competence of the Soviet spies.

Building an atomic bomb around 1945 was an incredibly complicated and difficult task.

I think the USA employed thousands of the brightest scientists from all over the world and spent incredible amounts of money - more money than I would have thought even existed in USSR at that time.

But the Soviets developed an A-Bomb and then shortly after that an H-Bomb and I don’t know how or why - but they made it seem like it wasn’t hardly any trouble at all.

I would hate to have to be part of the USA’s counter-intelligence program (assuming those are the people who have to combat the USSR’s spies) because those USSR spies must have been just incredibly good.

As an aside, that really heightens my interest in the FX Network’s relatively new show “The Americans”. It’s about a couple of secret USSR spies and IMHO, it may well be the very best show on TV today - maybe even better than Game of Thrones or Fargo or any of the other finest TF shows on the air today. For all those who are interested in this topic (Soviet Espionage and Counter-Espionage) I would recommend this show to you with the highest possible enthusiasm.

As Tony the Tiger used to say, “It ain’t bad”! j/k :slight_smile:

If you think that their spies gave away the “secret” of the atomic bomb, you are wrong. The US went from theory to a working bomb in 4 years. Why do you think that it should have taken the Soviets any longer?

Besides North Korea, its taken every other country about 8-10 years, from start of programme to deliverable device.
The Manhattan project was a wartime mad rush, with unlimited funds and major help from Britain. The Soviet project(which began in 1944) was more like that of the other nations, a high priority one which still had to compete for resources.

So I think 2-3 years perhaps?

I want to begin by saying that I applaud you for making an extremely thoughtful and intelligent post. Great work!

However, I have to disagree with you (based really just on my gut feeling) when you say the obstacles were neither scientific nor engineering per se.

It seems to me that even though they possessed the plans to the bomb, the problems in actually building one were gigantic. Enormous. Supremely huge.

Do you know the USA had to build several gigantic installations (Hanford, WA, etc.)- each employing more than one thousand (my guess) people and had to spend a freaking fortune to process all that uranium ore and convert it into weapons-grade plutonium or uranium?

Today, that may not sound like an overwhelming problem. But in the 1945 era? That was a completely different proposition. It was an increidbly huge problem of every kind - especially scientific and engineering.

To this day, I can’t imagine how the USSR got its hands on all that uranium ore or moved it to the site necessary to process it or how they processed it. The challenges facing the USSR at that time seem to me to have been mind boggling.

Scientific and enginerring but also financial and manpower. IIRC the USA scoured the world for all the best scientists and engineers they needed to get the job done. How the USSR ever found the necessary manpower (awa womanpower) is just beyond my imgagination and IMHO, even beyond the realm of possibility.

You seriously need to get some perspective. The USSR population in 1939 was 168 million vs the US at 130 Million. There was no shortage of manpower.
One reason the US built 3 enormous facilities was to make thousands of bombs - if all that was required was to make a few, the facilities could be much smaller (I don’t know if the Russians built enormous factories right from the start, though).

I remember someone discussing, I think it was the Tehran or more likely the Yalta conference. The discussion was what to do with the Germans once the war ended. Stalin suggested they simply round up and execute the top 50,000 Germans. Roosevelt was unaware that Stalin was dead(?) serious, and said “49,000 should be enough”. Eventually they settled on the Nuremburg trials.

The thing is, the Americans did the hard work of figuring out how to make things work. Reverse engineering is pretty easy by comparison. You now it works - just re-create it. If North Korea or Pakistan can do it, it doesn’t require a huge amount of high tech or expertise. (Relatively speaking - what I mean it does not require a USA level of industrial might and a massive collection of brains.)

Presumably, too, the Russians got a lot of glimpses of specific technical details of what would work to point them in the right directions.