So, fat-shaming?
Sure, it is possible to be someone who wants to insult Michelle Obama because she is “masculine” who doesn’t want to insult her because she is black, but while not inevitably linked, I’d say that the probability of linkage is pretty damn high. A case in point.
You can argue that such is a choice, but it’s not a choice that is easily changed. Simply not getting an orange tan or fixing your hair in a different way is easily possible. It’s more akin to fashion, which also can be easily changed, or how you present yourself.
I think the real line is how easily they could fix the thing you are mocking them for.
That is, assuming bigotry is not involved in the insult. I’m drawing a blank at the moment, but I’m sure I’ve read racist insults about someone’s clothing. Best I can come up with is saying that some black person is dressed like a monkey.
My problem is that I can’t think of what they would think makes her look masculine besides a racist feature. I cannot think of any white woman being called masculine for their height. I can for being muscular, but it has to be much more muscular than Mrs. Obama.
I also can’t think of anyone with obvious feminine hips and bust being said to look masculine.
The only thing I can think that could possibly look masculine is that she has a characteristically African-American face, with certain broader features that are not typically present in White Americans. At least, that’s the only thing that my primal brain thinks looks masculine.
As such, mocking her for that does still seem racist to me.
If you can show me a detestable person who is also an admitted and enthusiastic glutton, sure. Otherwise, no, because it’s not their choice.
Wait, Carl Paladino? Wasn’t he the horse porn guy?
Also one who very publicly and very obviously lied about their weight. Oh, and one who has attacked others about their weight in the past.
Well the first would likely just be the “detestable” part I mentioned but the second does neatly combine both a motive and a particular target for derision; aye.
The vile quotes from Carl Paladino are a valuable object lesson for those who can stomach the sheer vile bigotry. And the object lesson is this. Barack and Michelle Obama were subjected to the most vicious ugly racist smears throughout Obama’s presidency, and the most contemptible level of disrespect, that I have ever seen directed against a public figure in modern history, and they took it all with calm and grace. So I have absolutely zero tolerance for anyone who makes similar vile racist comments about them and then metaphorically bats their eyes in feigned innocence, claiming it wasn’t racist at all, and hey look at the nasty things that were said about Bush and Trump. There is zero equivalence, and neither should anyone else have anything but zero tolerance for such toxic bullshit.
1985 s.319
This is incorrect. It is a centuries old stereotype in America that black women are more masculine looking than white women. Black women, the stereotype goes, have strong features, not delicate features like the white women do. It was part of the dehumanization of black people that was common in society. It made it easier to treat black women as beasts of burden if their racial identity was separated from the prevailing ideas about pale and delicate femininity.
In a mirrored process, the delicate features of some Asian men can sometimes seem “unmanly”. Anecdotally, this explains why Asian men get a tepid response on general dating apps.
Our notions of what is feminine and masculine very much include facial features, skin color and body types. Harping on Michelle’s height or calling her masculine play into historical stereotypes about black women.
Heck, just consider that one of the more common complimentary adjectives for a woman’s appearance is “fair”.
That *is *the reverse, though - the word “fair” *always meant *“attractive”, and only later came to mean “pale” from that.
I think you make some good points and there is a good deal of truth in this. But it is still a stretch to say that any time someone might find a black woman to be manly, that race is at play. If a black woman has the size and musculature, those are the primary signals, regardless of color or race.
Again, I offer the questions that Bone is conveniently refuses to answer: If I say that I think Leslie Jones might be a man, is that race-based? Hate based? Hate based toward a group? How about I say that I think the odds are MUCH greater than Leslie Jones is a man than, say, Kerry Washington? How about if I say that I think the odds that Michelle Obama has a penis is much greater than the odds that Kerry Washington has one? How does that fit into your calculus? Let’s also throw (the beautiful) Viola Davis into the mix. She’s not as conventionally feminine as Washington and has broader features, yet I’d still put my money on Leslie Jones. You?
All that in the very least is being an incredibly massive jerk.
This is not an answer to the questions in my post. But is is a response better suited to the Pit. Sorry if posing a hypothetical to a mod in an effort to better understand his thinking makes you uncomfortable.
Actually, that last part is not true. Feel as uncomfortable as you like.
No discomfort–only revulsion.
I’m not engaging in these hypotheticals because I find them gross. The very positing of them is debasing.
The idea that M. Obama has a penis is pushed in large part by Alex Jones, racist and all around terrible human being. There is no need to itemize all the ways humans can be awful when we have one specific example being discussed. This vile penis bullshit is one in a long line of racist garbage leveled at the Obamas. So if Alex Jones or David Duke or other racist assholes start aiming their bile at the other people you’ve mentioned, then we can contextualize those accordingly. For now, it’s sufficient to say that the line of attack or joke, that M. Obama has a penis, will not go over well and will almost certainly garner moderator attention.
You could just not claim that any of them are men.
True. But the question goes to IF someone posts it, even as a joke, is it racist? I think that’s worth exploring. I’m disappointed that Bone doesn’t feel he needs to explain his thinking beyond he thinks it icky and offensive. That leaves the door open to have someone accused of racism down the road when it might not have been at play. But I shouldn’t be surprised of this result on a board as left as this one. The left loves throwing around “racist!” as much as possible, even when it might not be appropriate. They like to use it as a cudgel to smack down racial comments and positions they simply don’t like, even when they are not racist. I’ll drop the matter now, but I am happy to have shared a little light on this fact. Again.