If the Feds won't do it, we will: localities take steps to curb illegal immigration

[magellan01]

@cold cold night

Have you ever tried to migrate to the United States? While it is certainly true that there is a “line,” it is not the sort of thing where you can just grab a ticket and wait for your number to show up. Waiting in line to migrate to the United States is like waiting in line to join the Stonecutters. Of course, that has no bearing on whether it is reasonable to migrate illegally, but I think it is worth remembering that in many ways it is incorrect to imply there is an orderly queue for everyone interested in doing things the right way to join.

I’ve said time and again, that our immigration policy shold be dramatically reformed. We should be making much, much easier for people to come here legally. But until then—and even after then—people should be expected to respect our immigration laws. Period. Unless we enforce our laws now, they will be equally meaningless, whatever they are, after we revamp them.

[tomndebb]

@The King of Soup

I can’t even type that without hearing Sterling Hayden talk about the plot to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

You can, however, type that without mentioning your ancient movie flashbacks within this thread.

Let’s leave the personal comments and characterizations out of this, OK?

[CBEscapee]

@magellan01

Now, since both legal and illegal immigrants carry dengue and some percent, that we can safely assume to be greater than that of the U.S. population, it seems pretty obvious that if you reduce the numbers in either group, you’re helping fight dengue in the U.S. Let’s say that the same number of illegal and legal immigrants—3,000 each—come into a place in a given time period. And let’s say that the incidence of dengue among those groups is 5 per 1,000 (arbitrary). Then if you were able to stop the illegal group, you’d cut your influx of those carrying dengue into the community half. Cutting your increased exposure due to immigration in half.

OK dude, it’s time to put up or shut up on this dengue nonsense.

Show one case that dengue has been transmitted from an illegal alien to another person in the US. You keep making these bizrre arguments but you offer absolutely no proof. NADA!! (Oops, that means “nothing” for monolingual English speaking language police).

[magellan01]

@CBEscapee

First, I never said YOU were dishonest.

One, from Post 61:

@CBEscapee

Those are two glaring deliberate misrepresentations. I wonder how many more your post contains?

Two, from Post 67:

@CBEscapee

Here’s another example of deliberate misinformation from a source magellan links to…

@CBEscapee

Possibly incorrect??? Thanks for the laugh!!! I didn’t have to try very hard. As a Mexican national I know the law here.

Good for you, Then simply show what was incorrect.

@CBEscapee

Oh no, you want to make me an STMB illegal language alien!! Don’t get your pampers in knot. Unregistered Bull did a fine job of translating the key part of the Constitution.

Yes, he was helpful enough to do that. But you posted it in Spanish. Brilliant.

@CBEscapee

But you put the blame of a “recent virulent outbreak”(like a spike in dengue cases that occured 7-8 years ago is recent?) on illegals?

See my response to Unregistered Bull.

[magellan01]

@SteveG1

The constitutionality of “anchor” babies was discussed to death in “that other” thread, as was the “patriotism” of the Minutemen, Border Guard, etc. I noticed now that there is some dire “threat to our culture”. WFT is that? Everything about the “American culture” came from somewhere else. That hot dog or burger we eat at the baseball game came from Germany. Pizza and spaghetti came from Italy. The basis for our laws came from England. .

Do you deny that America has a culture, as amorphous as it might be? Or that it is not worth preserving?

@SteveG1

Something else I thought of… the “My people did it legally and came through Ellis Island and blah blah blah” argument. Well, MY family came that way too, in the early 1900’s. BUT they had it easier. About the only requirements were that you not be a criminal and not be carrying some dread disease. There was also NOT a 10 plus year wait. You merely had to have someone already in the States vouch for you. You didn’t need a gang of laywers to navigate the immigration laws. It was EASIER.

So? There were a lot of things easier back in the day. Many things have become hyper-legalistic. But as I’ve said, we should revamp our immigration laws to make it much easier for people to come here legally. But even after we do, there will be laws, with things that are NOT allowed. We’ll need to enforce those laws then, just as we should be doing now.

[CBEscapee]

@magellan01

Good for you, Then simply show what was incorrect.

I did show what was incorrect. You must have missed it. :rolleyes:

@magellan01

Yes, he was helpful enough to do that. But you posted it in Spanish. Brilliant.

Yep, I posted from the Mexican Constitution which happens to be written in Spanish. Ain’t that a fucking surprise?

I’m still waiting for you to post proof of just one case of dengue transmission from an illegal alien. You do of course have proof, don’t you? Thanks

[Unregistered_Bull]

Dengue.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/metro/stories/10/27dengue.html

Dengue fever is not new to Texas. "Previous outbreaks of the dengue fever have occurred sporadically in Texas throughout the last century.

In 1922, a half million Texans had dengue fever, said acting state epidemiologist Tom Betz. In 1999, 63 Texans had dengue fever."

Seems like something that always been around.

http://www.tdh.state.tx.us/news/b_new300.htm

“TDH has confirmed 51 cases of dengue fever this year. Health officials have determined that 16 of the cases were contracted in South Texas. The other 35 cases are believed to have been contracted in Mexico or Brazil. The South Texas girl who died is the only confirmed case of hemorrhagic dengue fever in the state this year.”

One death in 1999 from a US traveler to Mexico.

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/idcu/health/dpn/issues/dpn61n18.pdf *PDF

Not one medical professional scapegoats illegal aliens.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/dengue/

“…There is a small risk for dengue outbreaks in the continental United States. Two competent mosquito vectors, Ae. aegypti and Aedes albopictus, are present and, under certain circumstances, each could transmit dengue viruses. This type of transmission has been detected six times in the last 25 years in south Texas (1980 -2004) and has been associated with dengue epidemics in northern Mexico by Aedes aegypti and in Hawaii (2001-02) due to Ae. albopictus…”

Pretty different numbers from TX Dept of Health. But they only count 6 whole times.

[Unregistered_Bull]

@magellan01

Do you deny that America has a culture, as amorphous as it might be? Or that it is not worth preserving?

So? There were a lot of things easier back in the day. Many things have become hyper-legalistic. But as I’ve said, we should revamp our immigration laws to make it much easier for people to come here legally. But even after we do, there will be laws, with things that are NOT allowed. We’ll need to enforce those laws then, just as we should be doing now.

We have cultures. I can’t think of one broadly practiced Mexican cultural aspect that isn’t shared with Hispanics, and even Anglos, in TX or the Southwest. I’m not including illegal immigrant stock or their US citizen descendants either.

So what isn’t going to be allowed?

[Unregistered_Bull]

@magellan01

Don’t you realize that your last sentence here proves that your first one is wrong? The concept of anchor babies is real, even thought they may need to wait 21 years. Also, I think there is some provision for children over seven to petition the state in some way. But I’m not sure about that.

So then there is no ‘anchor baby’ in the sense that both you and your bigoted cites have alluded to?

[GIGObuster]

@magellan01

Do you deny that America has a culture, as amorphous as it might be? Or that it is not worth preserving?

The greatest feature of American culture is that it adopts items of others and it also changes, culture is dynamic. It isn’t protection that it needs; it is stimulation.

So? There were a lot of things easier back in the day. Many things have become hyper-legalistic. But as I’ve said, we should revamp our immigration laws to make it much easier for people to come here legally. But even after we do, there will be laws, with things that are NOT allowed. We’ll need to enforce those laws then, just as we should be doing now.

Paying for it got harder since people like Tancredo just can not help but to vote for tax cuts in these times of need.

[magellan01]

@even sven

In many cities there also exists a large *native[/] Spanish speaking populations that have been here since well before any English speakers arrived. Speaking Spanish does not go against American culture, because it is a part of American culture.

True. But it is a matter of degree. If I bought 30 million people here tomorrow from China, I think you wold agree that it would be a shock to our culture. It’s a combination of the number and the time over which they are brought in.

@even sven

Should we kick them out, too? Or should we recognize that being “Indian” or “Mexican” and “American” isn’t a contridiction.

We shouldn’t kick anyone out who is here legally. Certainly not for how they self-identify. I think that one thing even more sacrosanct than freedom of speech is freedom of thought. I wouldn’t even thow out someone how thinks and professes to hate America. I would wonder why they are here and suggest they leave. But not want to use the force of law to make them leave.

@even sven

Indeed, in countries with an official language, that language is usually the language of government but not at all the language that people speak at home.

I think that’s a great model for here. And I don’t mind aigns in Spanish or Chinese or any other language. My guess is that it makes sense for those businesses to do so. But when the incidence of those signs reaches some point, it starts to make America look less like America and more like the place represented on the signs. This seems very basic to me. Do you not agree?

@even sven

This is a mischaracterization of what that was about. Muslims were hoping for recognition of their family law, regarding things like divorce, inheretence, etc. For example, if you were undergoing a divorce you could both choose to have custody, etc. decided according to Islamic law and have the state recognize those decisions. Recognizing the family law of different populations is an ancient and common practice in much of the world.

I do not think it is a mischaracterization. What you described is what the group was petitioning for. The government had to either grant the same privleges to this group that they hasd extended earlier to the Jewish community or disallow any special consideration. I recall reading that the government, seeing that they would paint themselves into a corner down the road concerning Sharia law, took a consistent stance and withdrew special consideration for the Jewish community. I haven’t heard abou this or looked into since it was in the news, so I don’t know where things stand now.

And, if I recall correctly, it was not just family law that was at issue for the Jewish community. They were able to also resolve business disputes in a way that was in line with Jewish law.

@even sven

As for dengue…well, when we bring our troops back from Iraq, they will have been exposed to a lot of foreign diseases, right? We can’t just bring a mass of potentially disease ridden people right in to the heart of our cities all at once, can we?

Hopefully, for their individual well-beiing and that of the communities they will be returning to, I hope that they are checked. But it’s one thing to catch the flu from your child, it’s another to catch it from someone who breaks into your house and sleeps in your bed.

[magellan01]

@SteveG1

About the “all they have to do is follow the law” argument. Below are some quotes about it. If the judges and lawyers are having fits in understanding the law, what chance would Jose, Hans, or Mario have???

I’m sure this is any issue for some people, but I think that it is a small minority. I think it is fairly easy to understand that you are not allowed to come to the U.S. without the proper papers. Millions understand this, which is why most stay out, and millions sneak in.

It should be fairly easy to understand that yourt visa expires on a certain date. You can apply for an extension, but if it is not granted, you must leave. And that if you do NOT apply for an extension, you must leave.

[even_sven]

@magellan01

Free health care, turning our emergency rooms into health clinics.

If this is really such a big deal, why the fuck don’t we just open some clinics and let the emergency rooms do their thing. It’s not like immigrants particularly want to hang out at the emergency room for hours and hours at a time. And it seems like the choice between starting a clinic or closing your hospital is an easy one. So? Why isn’t this being done?

In-state tuition at colleges.

For the LEGAL children, only when they have in fact lived in that state and in fact are residents.

[Saint_Cad]

@CBEscapee

You completely missed the point.

Thenwhat was the point? Someone born in this country to illegal immigrant mother is a citizen by birth and as such cannot be deported.

This is not accurate. Schools are financed through real estate and income taxes. Everyone pays real estate taxes, either directly as owners of property or indirectly through rent (unless someone wants to claim that landlords typically deduct their property taxes from the rent due them). To the extent that illegal workers can neither claim refunds from withheld income taxes nor take property tax deductions of the inciome taxes (for which they cannot file), illegal immigrants appear to be paying more than their share for education.

First of all, “free public education” is a term used to denote that tuition is not charged. Clearly it costs the government $ through taxes to pay for schools (over $90 per day per student in CA. The issue is that free and public education is a right given to all US citizens. The question raised is why should those rights also be given to people breaking the law by being here illegally?

The second question is: why can’t illegal immigrants claim income tax refunds? Certainly there is no box on the 1040 asking about citizenship.

Maybe a better question is if an illegal immigrant does not have an SSN (all that’s required to file taxes), then how do they get WIC, driver’s licenses, into colleges, etc.? If they do have a SSN, then they can get a refund.

[magellan01]

@tomndebb

I am curious as to why you are advancing this argument, since you were corrected on the misunderstanding of the facts of the issue reported in the U.S. press (and anti-immigration blogs), already.

Huh? I went back to that thread and don’t see what you’re talking about. **Sunspace **provided this link, which seems to support what I was, and am, saying.

[Unregistered_Bull]

@even sven

For the LEGAL children, only when they have in fact lived in that state and in fact are residents.

Actually some states propose or went to in-state tuition for illegal aliens that reside in the state.

[Unregistered_Bull]

@SaintCad

Maybe a better question is if an illegal immigrant does not have an SSN (all that’s required to file taxes), then how do they get WIC, driver’s licenses, into colleges, etc.? If they do have a SSN, then they can get a refund.

Out of the notion of compassion for children, WIC doesn’t discriminate by law. Out of the notion of wanting people to know the rules of the road and be able to obtain insurance, driver’s licenses are issued. Tax ID number I believe.

I’m kind of lost on the in-state college tuition bit, unless it is the same property tax notion that tomndebb referred to?

BTW, I believe that is the law that all minor children be given a public education regardless of citizenship status. No?

[Unregistered_Bull]

@Unregistered Bull

Out of the notion of compassion for children, WIC doesn’t discriminate by law. Out of the notion of wanting people to know the rules of the road and be able to obtain insurance, driver’s licenses are issued. Tax ID number I believe.

I’m kind of lost on the in-state college tuition bit, unless it is the same property tax notion that tomndebb referred to?

BTW, I believe that is the law that all minor children be given a public education regardless of citizenship status. No?

:smack:

If they’re illegal, they can’t have a valid SSN. But I believe that taxes can be paid / refunds given with a tax id number.

[magellan01]

@CBEscapee

OK dude, it’s time to put up or shut up on this dengue nonsense.

Show one case that dengue has been transmitted from an illegal alien to another person in the US. You keep making these bizrre arguments but you offer absolutely no proof. NADA!! (Oops, that means “nothing” for monolingual English speaking language police).

You are being ridiculous. I understand that you migh not notice that. But here you go:

At 1:16 AM, a mosquito alights on the arm of one Manuel Vargas, an illegal immigrant from Mexico who was sleeping at a friends house in El Paso. Manuel Vargas has dengue fever. At 3:18 said mosquito departed the Northwest window through a crack in the screen. At approximately 3:42 AM said mosquito arrivedon the neck of Scott Johnson, a Bostonian who had moved to El Paso earlier that week. At 3:43 Mr. Johnson said ouch and slapped at the mosquito that had bitten him, resulting in said mosquito’s immediate demise. soon afterward, Mr. Johnson was feeling ill and went to see a doctor. He was advised that he had contracted dengue fever.

There you go, Bubb. Anything else?

[magellan01]

@Unregistered Bull

So what isn’t going to be allowed?

I’m not sure exactly what you are asking. I don’t know, what isn’t going to be allowed. It depends on how the new laws are crafted. But assuming we won’t have completely open borders, certain things will NOT be allowed. And we’ll have to enforce the laws in that regard, the same as we enforce all our other laws.