If there is a Devil, wouldn't he be pretending to be God?

[TV_time]

@ITR champion

In post 1, TV posed a question about Satan. In post 2, I answered it. In post 3, TV objected to my answer on the grounds that all followers of any religion do only evil things. In post 12, I challenged him to either defend or withdraw that statement. As of yet, he has not done so.

Whoa—Nowhere that I saw, did I ever say “All”. You Satanist (under my theory you could well be called that and besides, since you labled me an atheist, it seems only fair that I give you a lable too - In my seven or so years on this board, I have never claimed to be an atheist) sure are good at manipulating what is said. And as for everything I said being lies. You might look around again. And as for me “objecting” to your questionable logic, I don’t deny any person the right to be wrong. Are you saying no televangelist has called for the assination of a world leader? Are you saying no Christians have called for the deaths of Muslims? And I thought eveyone following the Romney run for the Republican nod noticed that there were Baptists badmouthing Mormons. Clearly, I was wrong, you didn’t notice it.

And regarding Lehrer’s profession. You might want to take a second look at that also. Your record on facts seems to be really weak.

And as for anyone being an expert on modern religon, are you setting limits there too? All I did in the OP was pose a thought. It saddens me when self-appointed gaurdians of Christian thought start determining who is love and who is hate with no other backing than his (or her) own sanctimonious narrow mindedness. But as I said. You have the right to say what you want, but please do be careful about calling names. Or should I add Christians calling people who disagree with them atheists to my list of people whom Satan has corrupted into thinking his way? (or do I have to call them Satanist?)

By the way, sorry about being so slow to “defend” my statements, but I wandered away from the board to get some supper.

I can’t really believe anyone is advancing your statements - I still think you are going for the mega woosh.

[Der_Trihs]

@ITR champion

So then, should the homeless people who are given warm meals and a place to sleep during the winter months at a program like Room at the Inn be constantly saying to the minister and his assistants, “Curse your evil self interest!”?

Quite a few do. Do you think poor people like being forced to go through indoctrination and humiliation for food ? And when the money runs low, they’ll cut the food before they cut the godpushing.

The motivation of such groups isn’t to help the poor, but to push that particular religion on them. They aren’t allowed to break the fingers of unbelievers until they confesses faith in the One True God, so they use false charity and other such propaganda tools instead.

@ITR champion

Can you justify this statement by linking to an example of one of these religious food banks that switches rapidly between feeding the poor and committing genocide?

:rolleyes: I don’t have access of a database of Food Banks Throughout History, assuming such a thing even exists. There are, however, plenty of examples of the same institutions that support charity supporting mass murder and other atrocities, when it suits their religious interests. The Catholic Church, to pick one example, runs charities, while having done and still doing things that inflict plenty of misery and death. Anti-abortionism, lies about condoms and AIDS, and so on; support of Nazism if you go farther back.

And why not ? Religion thrives on despair. The last thing any religion wants is to succeed in making the world a better place. It would be bad for business.

@Omegaman

Well just see, won’t we? You and I, when the time comes, well see.

Actually, we’ll be dead, and won’t see a thing.

[Omegaman]

@Der Trihs

Quite a few do. Do you think poor people like being forced to go through indoctrination and humiliation for food ? And when the money runs low, they’ll cut the food before they cut the godpushing.

The motivation of such groups isn’t to help the poor, but to push that particular religion on them. They aren’t allowed to break the fingers of unbelievers until they confesses faith in the One True God, so they use false charity and other such propaganda tools instead.

:rolleyes: I don’t have access of a database of Food Banks Throughout History, assuming such a thing even exists. There are, however, plenty of examples of the same institutions that support charity supporting mass murder and other atrocities, when it suits their religious interests. The Catholic Church, to pick one example, runs charities, while having done and still doing things that inflict plenty of misery and death. Anti-abortionism, lies about condoms and AIDS, and so on; support of Nazism if you go farther back.

And why not ? Religion thrives on despair. The last thing any religion wants is to succeed in making the world a better place. It would be bad for business.

Actually, we’ll be dead, and won’t see a thing.

Day ain’t over yet.

[Poor_College_Student]

@Omegaman

Day ain’t over yet.

The “we’ll see” line is the worst for good logical debates, IMO. It proves absolutely nothing and gives just as much evidence for your case. I can say, “Oh you’ll see when we die, I was right about that Flying Spaghetti Monster. We’ll see.” With just as much credit and support to the statement.

Actually, I’d like to compare the “We’ll see.” line to the “History will decide.” line I’ve heard when some people defend Bush’s presidency. I think they correlate wonderfully.

[j666]

@ITR champion

A few religious charities are started by ordinary believers with no official backing. The vast majority have support from a major religious body, and would cease to exist if those religious bodies cease to exist.
It can’t hurt.
True.
If someone wants to defend that viewpoint, I’d be happy to debate it. (Though I don’t see it’s relevance to this thread.)
In post 1, TV posed a question about Satan. In post 2, I answered it. In post 3, TV objected to my answer on the grounds that all followers of any religion do only evil things. In post 12, I challenged him to either defend or withdraw that statement. As of yet, he has not done so.

My point was that good people will do good, so stating that good is done by the religious is irrelevant.

The hell it can’t hurt. The most cursory readings in sociology indicate otherwise.

“True” is your response to my primary disagreement with your thesis?

The OP started a discussion on the nature of the Christian Devil. I think it was hijacked.

[ITR_champion]

@Der Trihs

Quite a few do.

Are you able to justify this statement by linking to an example of a poor person who thinks this thought? If not, should I assume that you were lying?

Do you think poor people like being forced to go through indoctrination and humiliation for food ?

If such an imaginary situation were ever to become reality, I imagine that the people who need food would still be glad to have food.

And when the money runs low, they’ll cut the food before they cut the godpushing.

Are you able to justify this statement with a link? If not, should I assume that you were lying?

The motivation of such groups isn’t to help the poor, but to push that particular religion on them.

When I worked with Room at the Inn, I never heard religion mentioned to any of the recipients. Are you able to link to something that proves your claim that Room at the Inn every involves any attempt to “push” any religion? If not, should I assume that you were lying?

They aren’t allowed to break the fingers of unbelievers until they confesses faith in the One True God

Well at least we both agree that no religion allows its members to break anyone’s fingers. (Too bad the same can’t be said for the atheists who rule China.)

so they use false charity and other such propaganda tools instead.

If giving people food and shelter is “false charity”, then what’s true charity. Starving them and throwing them out in the cold?

:rolleyes: I don’t have access of a database of Food Banks Throughout History, assuming such a thing even exists.

I’ll interpret this as your long-winded way of saying “no”.

There are, however, plenty of examples of the same institutions that support charity supporting mass murder and other atrocities, when it suits their religious interests. The Catholic Church, to pick one example, runs charities, while having done and still doing things that inflict plenty of misery and death. Anti-abortionism, lies about condoms and AIDS, and so on;

First of all, do you have a link to prove that the Catholic Churcb spreading lies about condoms and AIDS? If not, should I assume that you were lying?

Secondly, do you think that lieing is the same thing as genocide? If so, why? (And what does that say about the numerous lies that you’ve told on this board.)

support of Nazism if you go farther back.

The Catholic church never supported Nazism. It was one the worst enemies of the Nazis.

And why not ?

Perhaps because all of this is true in your head, but false in reality.

Religion thrives on despair.

Do you have a link to a major religion promoting despair, or promotng anything other than hope, which is the opposite of despair? If not, should I assume that you were lying?

The last thing any religion wants is to succeed in making the world a better place.

So then let me ask again, does the feeding of the hungry, the curing of the ill, the comforting of the dieing, the uplifting of the depressed make the world a worse place in your vision? If not, how do you square your claim with the fact that religious institutions do all these things?

It would be bad for business.

Religions are not in business.

[ITR_champion]

@j666

My point was that good people will do good, so stating that good is done by the religious is irrelevant.

That may have been your point. If so, good for you. Tv time’s point was that everything that every religious person ever does is evil. In response to that, the fact that religious people is hgihly relevant. Would you not agree?

The hell it can’t hurt. The most cursory readings in sociology indicate otherwise.

Tell me what these readings are. If they’re as cursory as you claim, I’ll be happy to read them and see whether they actually indicate that religion prevents charity.

“True” is your response to my primary disagreement with your thesis?

The “true” was in response to your third line in post 15, which was not a disagreement with anything that I had posted before. Inasmuch as I have a thesis in this thread, you’ve never said anything about it

The OP started a discussion on the nature of the Christian Devil.

Actually, the OP is really just an excuse to lob nasty insults at religious believers.

I think it was hijacked.

If discussion about the goodness or evilness of religion is a hijack, then it was the OP who did the hijacking, so you can complain to him.

[Poor_College_Student]

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=656587&category=OPINION&newsdate=1/20/2008

Related article, for everyone’s viewing pleasure. =)

Are you able to justify this statement by linking to an example of a poor person who thinks this thought? If not, should I assume that you were lying?

I can tell you when I’ve gone to feed the homeless, there’s always a few that try to get their food and drink and sneak out before they do the prayer. But there are also the ones that are especially grateful.

And I would say no, no, no, and no (four times) to your assumptions about someone lying. Without any source or fact, you really shouldn’t assume either way, because you can’t know.

[BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed]

I dunno, seems to me like there would be fewer charities if not for religion. And just because some people do it because they fear damnation, doesn’t make people’s bellies any less full. The “godpushing” sucks, but it’s keeping some charities running. Who cares if people get fed by “false charity.” At least they get fed.

[Voyager]

@ITR champion

Really? Post a link to the firsthand accounts from all your ancestors justifying this statement. I’ll be interested in reading them, since they apparently tell the exact opposite tale of the one told by almost all other members of the human race during the same time frame.

I’m Jewish. My direct ancestors didn’t suffer the Inquisition, but they did suffer the pogroms, they were driven into ghettos, many were driven from countries like England. So don’t get sanctimonious on me. They had to suffer because they killed Christ, and were better off forcibly converted. So fuck your wonderful Christian ancestors.

I’m not a literalist. You can promote biblical literalism if you like, but I’ll not respond to it.

Since I’m an atheist, I’ll hardly do that. So, what do you believe about the devil? What’s in the Bible, or whatever you feel like believing? Does the devil even exist in your book? If so, how do you learn about him? So you can tell the difference? You’re smarter than the devil? Ever hear of the sin of pride?

[Voyager]

@ITR champion

So then, should the homeless people who are given warm meals and a place to sleep during the winter months at a program like Room at the Inn be constantly saying to the minister and his assistants, “Curse your evil self interest!”?

Who is a better person: the one who feeds the poor on the promise of the reward of a million dollars, or one who does it for no reward?

And you never answered my argument. Do you believe in the flood? In the Exodus? I trust you believe in floods and earthquakes.

You also might try answering and dropping the Socratic method. I knew Socrates and you aren’t any Socrates.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@ITR champion

No, because religions engender understanding and love, not confusion and hate. (The Devil may have gloried in some of the older religions that practiced human sacrifice and suchlike, but those ones are long gone.)

Suggesting that religion now engenders understanding and love uniformly is as silly a premise as **Der Trihs’ ** that they’re uniformly evil.

In general, I would wager the Devil would do anything to get things his way, if he exists. I imagine the second easiest prey for him would be those like me who don’t think he exists, since we would evaluate things without taking him into account. The easiest prey would be those who are certain they can always recognise his work - not only can they be fooled, but since they take the Devil into account he could trick them into actively pursuing that course simply through that recognition.

[FriarTed]

@Voyager

I’m Jewish. My direct ancestors didn’t suffer the Inquisition, but they did suffer the pogroms, they were driven into ghettos, many were driven from countries like England. So don’t get sanctimonious on me. They had to suffer because they killed Christ, and were better off forcibly converted. So fuck your wonderful Christian ancestors.
Since I’m an atheist, I’ll hardly do that. So, what do you believe about the devil? What’s in the Bible, or whatever you feel like believing? Does the devil even exist in your book? If so, how do you learn about him? So you can tell the difference? You’re smarter than the devil? Ever hear of the sin of pride?

You know, it was your wonderful ancestors who inflicted that God/Bible “hoax” on humanity anyway.

Of course, I do think they were wonderful & am grateful for them passing along the Word, and I deplore the evil done to them in the name of Christ, but to your mindset, Moses & Joshua must have been as loathsome as the medieval Christians.

[Mapache]

ITRC said:
The Catholic church never supported Nazism. It was one the worst enemies of the Nazis.

Posted without comment, for now:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

[gonzomax]

@Mapache

Posted without comment, for now:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

It was just business. That trumps all.

[lekatt]

@TV time

And wouldn’t he have gotten someone (or ones) to write a (the) Bible and have all of mankind worship him (It sounds like a Devilish ego) and declare war in his name and convert natives in his name, etc. So, all this time that people thought they were worshipping God, they were really worshipping the devil.

I mean, wouldn’t the Devil glory in all of the different religions and confusion/hate they have engendered.

I suspect if the Devil didn’t exist, man would have invented him.

Who better to blame for errant behaviour, “the Devil made me do it.”

Now the Devil exists because of being empowered by those who believe in him. He causes one to fall into every hole, stumble over every bump, and be blown in each direction of the prevailing wind. But not all empower the Devil, there are those who keep their power, and those who take their power back from the Devil and march to a different drummer. They accept responsibility for their bad habits and mistakes, for their failures and position in life, and work very hard at correcting them. For these people the Devil does not exist.

[lekatt]

@Mapache

Posted without comment, for now:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Propaganda pictures, nothing more. A hand salute is not a commitment, or an endorsement. Hitler used religion to make his rule more palatable to the German people most of which were not Nazis. Secretly he hated religion and any thing else that would limit his total rule.

[lekatt]

@TV time

How do you know, if you are buying his sales pitch?
Have you looked around our world? I see no religions pushing understanding and love. They say it and then call for the assination of leaders and peoples throughout the world. Christians are calling for the death of Muslims, Muslims calling for the death of infidels, Baptists badmouthing Mormons, Televanglists calling for the deaths of world leaders. And to quote Tom Leher “Everybody hates the Jews.”

The only ones who seem to not call for the deaths of anyone else are the devil worshippers.

Wait a minute, you were wooshing me weren’t you. Good one.

Yes, I have looked and see religions of all kinds feeding the hungry, clothing, educating, providing health care for the poor. That is what religions do. Ninety percent, maybe more, of all charity work done in this world is done by religions. Religions do not call for the assination of leaders and peoples throughtout the world. Never do religions do this, you are confusing religions with some of the demented fanatics that claim to believe in them. Time for you to do a reality check. Tom is wrong, I don’t hate Jews.

[gonzomax]

@lekatt

Propaganda pictures, nothing more. A hand salute is not a commitment, or an endorsement. Hitler used religion to make his rule more palatable to the German people most of which were not Nazis. Secretly he hated religion and any thing else that would limit his total rule.

Hitler believed the bible backed up his hatred of Jews and suggested violence against them was acceptable. He was a religious man.

[ITR_champion]

@Voyager

I’m Jewish. My direct ancestors didn’t suffer the Inquisition, but they did suffer the pogroms, they were driven into ghettos, many were driven from countries like England. So don’t get sanctimonious on me. They had to suffer because they killed Christ, and were better off forcibly converted.

Do you have any actual evidence to back up the claim that these things happened to all of your ancestors, or are you merely making it up?

So fuck your wonderful Christian ancestors.

First, I have no wonderful Christian ancestors. My ancestors were all Jewish. Second, most of my ancestors are dead, so no one alive today can have sex with them.

Ever hear of the sin of pride?

Quite a bit, on this board.