And wouldn’t he have gotten someone (or ones) to write a (the) Bible and have all of mankind worship him (It sounds like a Devilish ego) and declare war in his name and convert natives in his name, etc. So, all this time that people thought they were worshipping God, they were really worshipping the devil.
I mean, wouldn’t the Devil glory in all of the different religions and confusion/hate they have engendered.
He tried. It didn’t work.
No, because religions engender understanding and love, not confusion and hate. (The Devil may have gloried in some of the older religions that practiced human sacrifice and suchlike, but those ones are long gone.)
How do you know, if you are buying his sales pitch?
Have you looked around our world? I see no religions pushing understanding and love. They say it and then call for the assination of leaders and peoples throughout the world. Christians are calling for the death of Muslims, Muslims calling for the death of infidels, Baptists badmouthing Mormons, Televanglists calling for the deaths of world leaders. And to quote Tom Leher “Everybody hates the Jews.”
The only ones who seem to not call for the deaths of anyone else are the devil worshippers.
Wait a minute, you were wooshing me weren’t you. Good one.
2 Cor 11:12-15
This is similar to some of the Gnostic heresies of the early centuries of the church. They argued that an imperfect, evil God created the world (which is therefore evil and imperfect) and acted the part of “God” throughout the Old Testament. Jesus, however, was sent by the true, perfect, good God to correct things, which is why Jesus’s philosophies are (a) so much more peaceful and (b) inherently better (from their point of view).
How do you know? Because the guy passing himself off as God said so?
Oh, really? I’ve got about 2,000 years of the suffering of my ancestors that says otherwise.
Let’s take a literalist approach to examine this question. The good God set up Adam and Eve in order to introduce death into the world. He drowned all but 8 people in the flood. He caused the deaths of thousands of innocent children in Egypt. He ordered the massacre of tribes that got in the way of the Hebrews. He makes no attempt to prevent the painful deaths of hundreds of thousands in natural disasters. And, if disbelief does mean damnation, he encourages it with a Bible that contradicts the world and which is logically inconsistent.
Now, let’s look at the supposedly evil Satan. He killed … who has he killed again? He tempted Jesus. Eh. He possessed Judas to betray Christ which is supposedly the reason for salvation. He runs a nasty hell, but why would the Devil torture sinners, his people. If there is a hell, God set it up.
So, all in all, I’d go with Satan any day. Because, if the Bible is true, it sure looks like he is the good God, and that the evil Satan won and now calls himself God.
Luckily, it isn’t.
I’ve heard theories that Judas is the actual savior; that part of the suffering he has born is to have everyone consider him a traitor.
But anyway, I think that if you are a thoughtful and religious person, you should make a priority of being a decent and kind person. God can hardly fault you for that.
I had never heard that—interesting.
Unless, all of that proslatizing thing that seems to go with being a religious person is all a recruitment scam for the other side. And I don’t know how many times I have heard ministers and evangelists say, “It won’t help you to be a decent and kind person.”
Heretical it may be, but I like it.
I’ve never heard that, but if I did, I would be tempted to ask “Will it help if I donate money?”
I think not. Where is the satisfaction in winning in someone else’s name? I think ego is more … visceral than that.
God is love, the Devil is hatred. I can tell the difference.
Quite a bit, as a matter of fact.
Right now, while you read these words, millions of religious folks are feeding the hungry, building shelter for the homeless, giving medical care to the poor, comforting newborns and the dieing, bringing hope to the depressed, and educating children. Does your superior atheist morality classify these things as love or as hate. If you say love, then you’ve admitted that your statement here was a lie, and you should apologize for it.
[quote]
They say it and then call for the assination of leaders and peoples throughout the world. Christians are calling for the death of Muslims, Muslims calling for the death of infidels, Baptists badmouthing Mormons, Televanglists calling for the deaths of world leaders.
[quote]
All these statements are lies, and you should apologize for making them. (Unless you can offer proof that all Christians are call for the death of Muslims, all Muslims are calling for the death of infidels etc…)
tom Lehrer is a comedian, not an expert on modern religion.
No, I was not.
Satan is the deceiver. Lies are his bag. I’ve seen his handy work around.
Really? Post a link to the firsthand accounts from all your ancestors justifying this statement. I’ll be interested in reading them, since they apparently tell the exact opposite tale of the one told by almost all other members of the human race during the same time frame.
I’m not a literalist. You can promote biblical literalism if you like, but I’ll not respond to it.
Does your superior deist morality classify these as ‘religious folk’ or an organized religion?
Do you believe these good people need a religion to require them to do good?
There are many good people who do good things. Some of them are religious; some are not.
Some believe those who do good without the threat of eternal damnation truly are morally superior.
And what does any of this have to do with the nature of Satan?
You are assuming your answer. How do you KNOW that “God is love, the Devil is hatred” ? And, for that matter, what makes you think that love = good and hatred = bad ? Who is morally superior, the person who hates pain and suffering and disease and works to eradicate it, or the person who loves a serial killer or tyrant and helps them in their work ? Hatred and love are morally neutral in themselves; just emotions; it’s context that makes them good or bad.
Given that’s he’s a fictional character, no you haven’t. And if he was real, how would you tell the difference between the work of God and Satan ?
:rolleyes: Yeah, I’m sure that all those people killed in religious wars, tortured or killed or oppressed as heretics or infidels, or converted by the sword could just FEEL the love.
A few religious charities are started by ordinary believers with no official backing. The vast majority have support from a major religious body, and would cease to exist if those religious bodies cease to exist.
It can’t hurt.
True.
If someone wants to defend that viewpoint, I’d be happy to debate it. (Though I don’t see it’s relevance to this thread.)
In post 1, TV posed a question about Satan. In post 2, I answered it. In post 3, TV objected to my answer on the grounds that all followers of any religion do only evil things. In post 12, I challenged him to either defend or withdraw that statement. As of yet, he has not done so.
Considering all the misery and death that religion has inflicted on the world, and still is, yes it CAN hurt. Immensely.
It’s easy enough to understand. The claim is that someone who does good out of fear of Hell or desire for Heaven isn’t good at all, just self interested. And someone who does good just because God Said So isn’t being good either, just obedient; that’s the sort of person who’ll switch from feeding the poor to shovelling them alive into ovens if God tells him to do that instead.
Someone who helps others just because he wants to, or feels some self imposed moral duty to do so, on the other hand, IS being good.
So then, should the homeless people who are given warm meals and a place to sleep during the winter months at a program like Room at the Inn be constantly saying to the minister and his assistants, “Curse your evil self interest!”?
Can you justify this statement by linking to an example of one of these religious food banks that switches rapidly between feeding the poor and committing genocide?
Well you and I have been round and round about it before and I don’t see any point in you getting your skirt all twisted about it now. Well just see, won’t we? You and I, when the time comes, well see.