If there was a new cold war between China and the US, who would be on what side?

In Hong Kong, police have been using tear gas, en masse, for years, not a month, and using it in much higher levels. Man, why do you think they called it the umbrella movement?? In addition, they have beaten many protesters (and these are almost exclusively actual peaceful protesters…no riots at all, generally, though there has been some fairly violent protesters when the police became violent or they were cut out of government meetings completely), have fired on protesters, arrested protesters and tortured them, used what are essentially mafia thugs to attack protesters, have sexually abused protesters and fired on protesters. This is nothing like what is happening in even cities with even the largest protests in the US…protests that, as a whole have been pretty peaceful, and that even the police have joined at times.

So, yeah…more than a bit deceptive, IMHO. You obviously disagree, as I see from your links.

So, a resort to stats. True enough…the known number of Han Chinese arbitrarily imprisoned in China is less than the percentage of blacks incarcerated in the US, so case closed! Or, a way to disingenuously use stats to prop up a case. While I’m not going to sit here and say that all minorities imprisoned in the US are there rightfully, it’s more complicated here than in China, as the majority of those imprisoned in the US have committed a crime. Myself, I think a lot of those ‘crimes’ are bullshit, but they are counted as such, and the fact that a white person could and often does go to jail for them means that there is a somewhat even field there and rule of law (I realize that blacks and hispanics are often put under a larger microscope for looking for crime does tend to put a thumb on those scales). If you were comparing the US to Europe it would be hands down no contest. But you aren’t. So, let’s look at China to see how ‘similar’ it is.

In China, often your ‘crime’ is simply being an ethnic minority…or being religious. Or having an opinion, but I digress. Tossing out stats, there are something like 6 million ethnic Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Of those, somewhere between 1-2 million are in concentration camps. Not prisons…concentration camps. Where they are tortured and brain washed. Those who aren’t in those camps are often spied on, and as many Han Chinese have been sent to the province to colonize it, the ethnic minority often has to house spies in their own homes. In many cases they are forcibly married to those colonists, though sometimes they are forcibly sterilized. Their culture is brutally suppressed. We won’t even get into how most of the jobs go to those Han Chinese colonists, and that poverty is rampant. I think that just this (non-exhaustive) list is enough to demonstrate that there is little similarity between the situation there and the one here…unless you are really being ridiculous. And that’s one province. We could talk about Tibet if you like, but it’s a similar story.

Then you have the fact that even in the ethnically majority Han areas the law is often completely arbitrary. For instance, we could discuss Falun Gong if you want to get really grizzly. Or many of the other arbitrary ways that Chinese citizens can and are arrested and often put in prisons, tortured, and sometimes used for parts. Or how the ruling elite are often above many of these laws…unless they aren’t because their faction is out of power.

So, it’s not really all that ‘similar’. Unless you want to really torture the definition and stretch the facts. None of this is to say that the US is perfect. We are far from it. But there is no comparison between the US and China on human rights.

The US is still the number one country on the planet as far as total GDP, military, cultural and market, we are still the go to currency. Sorry, but those things are facts. Does that mean we are the best at everything? Nope. Far from it. As I said, if you were comparing us to Europe, we’d fail at most of the things you linked too. Even things that were the American dream like economic and social mobility we’ve fallen far from the top spot. But we aren’t talking about Europe, or Canada, or Australia…we are talking about the US verse China. Only someone who is either ignorant or deliberately being disingenuous would even try and make a claim that human rights or police violence is any where near comparable between the US and China. There is no comparison. The REAL issue in the OP is, which countries will find it expedient to side with China over the US due to political or economic reasons, or vice versa. Only hypocrites or hypocritical nations would even try and make the argument you seem to be making in comparing the US and China on the things we are discussing here. True enough, this happens. Germany, until just this week springs to mind, but they aren’t alone…just one of the countries that SHOULD not allow expedience to guide them, especially with their history. But even that seems to be turning around, at least from the point of they are finally starting to become critical of China. Of course, they have never refrained from criticizing the US. And they should. It’s telling though that on one hand they have refrained and actually have to do so with China, while they haven’t needed to with the US. I think just that tells the tale. Think about that as you furiously respond to this post and think about WHY that is the case (and how that’s the case with many countries, and how when countries break from that what happens. Perhaps look at Australia and Canada as recent examples).

Of all Trump’s policies, which the Democrats abhor, they have been strangely quiet about the trade war with China. Me too.

Trump has probably messed up US foreign policy and standing in the world than anyone, but the basic’s of the policy, US Jobs are being lost to Chinese slave workers is probably correct.

China is ruled by a despotic one party dictatorship. Trump is an incompetent moron, who, hopefully will be removed from office by a democratic process in a few months.

Businesses don’t really care all that much about human rights anyway, so the deteriorating situation in the US won’t matter any more to investors in both countries. But America is giving up some advantages that it has had up to this point.

Owing to Trump’s erratic trade and foreign policies, we’re giving up the advantage of being known as a reliable trading partner without too many restrictions. China, for its part, is also giving up some ground thanks to Xi Jinping’s increasingly aggressive foreign and military posture. But China has shown more of a willingness to remain a part of international commitments on matters like climate change and trade.

But a more important advantage for China at the moment is that its government and society, for all its flaws (and there are many), seems more stable. To what extent that is reality and not a manufactured reality is not always clear, but most observers around the world would agree that China handled this pandemic much better than we did.

Moreover, the damage inflicted is not just a public health issue; it’s an unfolding economic disaster in the making, which could take decades for the US to recover from, and we seem blissfully unaware of this. As people form anti-mask cults and give the middle finger to public health experts, governments are forced to keep throwing away money to chase a problem borne out of civic irresponsibility. China, by contrast, has not had this problem.

One could argue that China might actually have greater political stability internally than we do. True, there are still a lot of people living in misery and one party rule gives them few options on petitioning the government for redress of grievances, but people in China are buying into the idea that their government has responded to a crisis, and that despite some early and obvious missteps, they’re now beginning to move forward to function in a new reality. This is why their factories are opening up and are now expanding capacity at their fastest pace in 10 years.

None of this means that traditionally American allies are going to exchange US for Chinese relations, but at the same time, allies have to live in and deal with reality. And the reality that they see increasingly is that China is a growing world power and the US is looking increasingly vulnerable and internally unstable. Further, it’s highly likely these are not just momentary snapshots but trends with a significant future trajectory.

One reason may be that the two prongs of the Democratic Party disagree on how to counter China economically. Though both prongs probably believe Trump has blundered his way into this trade war without any thought or foresight. The Obama moderate side had a plan - the TPP was a big part of it. The notion was to economically isolate China by creating free trade zones around it so that countries would move to other TPP countries and that would hurt China. The farther left side believes in more protectionism but a more thought out program which would not go in hard and then back off when China gives mostly symbolic concessions.

This is exactly what is happening in the US. US have also been using tear gas (and pepper spray and other chemical weapons) for decades. US police have fired on protesters (and medics and journalists and legal observers), US police have arrested protesters, US police have tortured protesters, and US police have sexually abused protesters. China does more of it and somewhat more frequently, but to claim that the US hasn’t done so is simply to deny reality.

Nope, this is wrong. The discussion is about countries like Canada, or Australia, or those in Europe choosing to take sides in a cold war between China and the US, it’s not a straight US vs China comparison. The specific topic we were on is the assertion that countries are going to line up with the US against China because of China’s human rights abuses, which runs into the problem that the US has become much worse on human rights issues in the past few decades and is much less able to cover up or explain away its long-running abuses than it once was. The idea that countries will throw in their lot with the US over China because of Chinese human rights abuses has to account for the fact that anyone concerned over human rights abuses will have similar concerns over the US.

Again, repeating your false claim that there is no comparison when I’m actively making the comparison doesn’t make your claim true. Your comment about ‘now you’re resorting to stats’, and the fact that you’re just ignoring masses of links supporting what I’m saying indicates that all you’ve got is ‘no that’s not true’ and that sources and numbers mean nothing to you. If you’re just going to dismiss sources and arguments, and just repeat that it’s not possible to compare the US and China (while comparing the US and China) this seems to fall more into the ‘witnessing’ category than the ‘debate’ part of this forum.

Yes, this is the problem - countries aren’t going to just sever ties with the US to join up with China, but I don’t forsee many countries choosing to enter commitments with the US. The US is demonstrating extreme internal stability, and has become very externally unstable - I think that US antics with NATO and Iran highlight just how dangerous relying on the US for anything defense related is. Countries will be glad if the gigantic US military aligns with their interest, but I expect that we’re not going to see any new mutual aid military treaties. Countries with existing treaties aren’t going to abrogate them, and countries like Taiwan and South Korea that have no real choice will continue to rely on the US, but I don’t see Europe or Canada adding any major new commitments.

Yep. As I see it, the real danger isn’t that allies switch allegiances from the US to China, as they’re increasingly wary of both. The more significant danger is global politics becomes a jungle in which every country becomes fearful of their neighbors and begins arming themselves to the teeth. Think Germany. Think Japan. Think South Korea. India. France. And the list goes on.

Right now, that doesn’t seem likely, but the world can change quickly, and we are quickly moving from an international order that has functioned more on cooperative competition since 1945 to one that functions on competition with alliances. That is a very, very dangerous world to live in, especially at a time when climate change will rapidly introduce very real scarcity in many parts of the world.

I surprised at how many posters are asking “if” we get into a cold war with China. What do you think we are in now? The U.S. and China are clearly in a cold war.

I think nations that militarily fear China will side with the U. S. As others have mentioned that’s clearly Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and Australia, New Zealand, etc. How much they “side” with the U.S. depends on their threat level, think Taiwan as opposed to New Zealand. This is very similar to the last cold war. Europe sided with the U.S. mostly because they militarily feared the USSR, not due to some love of America.

I know we all hate Trump and he’s destroyed the world as we know it, but U.S foreign policy hasn’t changed much if at all that I can see over the last four years. But Hong Kong sure has. And that is a sign to the world (or should be) what a China-centric world would look like. And while there are alot of U.S. haters here, when push comes to shove, I think most wouldn’t want to live in Hong Kong right now.