If there were a God, don't you think he would've made him or her self known by now?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=guizot]
The whole point of having a God is faith: belief. If you can believe in something of which there is no evidence, then you can get through all of the other shit that this world confronts us with. Even the personal misery that so many on the planet experience.
[/QUOTE]

I call BS. I know it’s fashionable to say that religion is a matter of faith, but at the end of the day, if you are permitted to believe in something without evidence, then there are no constraints whatsoever on what you can believe. You can believe in God, Satan, Odin, Thor, the entire panoply of Greek or Roman gods, or nothing–you can be a faith-based atheist. Faith gives us no guidance toward the truth. So why doesn’t God guide our beliefs?

22

God’s lack of communication with humans is particularly puzzling since, for most religions, God is supposed to be the source of morality. Since there are so many radical disagreements over what God wants us to do, if God were really planning on judging us according to our behavior, you would think that the least He could do is unambiguously convey to us His will. (And don’t say that He already has–intelligent people of good will have come to honest and radical disagreements concerning what God wants humans to do).

23

[QUOTE=guizot]
The whole point of having a God is faith: belief. If you can believe in something of which there is no evidence, then you can get through all of the other shit that this world confronts us with. Even the personal misery that so many on the planet experience.
[/QUOTE]
Nonsense. In the OT God let himself be known directly by Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham, and others. In the NT, Angels talked with Mary and “God” (Jesus) performed miracles that others could see.

This “faith” crap was just made up to justify why no one sane sees God any more.

24

To an atheist or agnostic, God isn’t communicating with mankind and never did.

But to a faithful Christian, God is everywhere. He communicates with us by prayer, the Bible, and the clergy. His wonders are seen thru the microscope, the telescope, in the physical sciences. His power is seen thru destructive weather, the infinite Universe and the vastness of the oceans. His ability to perform miracles is documented in the Bible and by the Church and every child born is a confimation of His wonderful, intelligent design and constant attention. He watches over all of us always.

I call it bullshit, but I know people – educated adults who are not living in the nuthouse – who would agree with that paragraph 100%. For them, the OP has been answered.

25

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Is there a point you’re trying to make?

[/QUOTE]

First off, I’m going to make God a male when I’m speaking, that way I won’t have to keep doing the he/she/it thing.*
Now, to answer your question:

Yup, I explained my point. If there were a God, why would it be so hard for him to just pop up on everyone’s television one night and explain where he’s been, why he’s been gone and to tell everyone to stop fighting in his name?

Why would this be so hard for an entity that created all of existence? All it would take is roughly 60 seconds and then all of the religion, faith, beliefs, wars and killing in his name as we’ve known it would be changed forever.

Wouldn’t it be more logical for God to do this?

26

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
More people have died in the name of God than almost any other reason.
[/QUOTE]
With all due respect, can you please substantiate that claim? I’ve lost track of the number of times somebody has made that claim here without any cites to back it up.

Hint: Look up the Guiness Book of World Records. It tells a different story.

27

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
Why would this be so hard for an entity that created all of existence? All it would take is roughly 60 seconds and then all of the religion, faith, beliefs, wars and killing in his name as we’ve known it would be changed forever.
[/QUOTE]
God will, indeed, show up some day, announce himself, and blow his whistle. And then the Game will be over.

At least, according to religious perspectives that believe in a Judgment Day of some sort.

28

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
*
First off, I’m going to make God a male when I’m speaking, that way I won’t have to keep doing the he/she/it thing.*
Now, to answer your question:

Yup, I explained my point. If there were a God, why would it be so hard for him to just pop up on everyone’s television one night and explain where he’s been, why he’s been gone and to tell everyone to stop fighting in his name?

Why would this be so hard for an entity that created all of existence? All it would take is roughly 60 seconds and then all of the religion, faith, beliefs, wars and killing in his name as we’ve known it would be changed forever.

Wouldn’t it be more logical for God to do this?
[/QUOTE]

I doubt it would work… various sides would just say that it was something their enemies did to undermine them. A lot of places would say it was some scheme by the U.S., since we’re probably the only country with the technology to pull something like that off.

Besides, if the Gospels are real (and I’m not saying they are), God ended up seeing his son crucified the last time he tried to say “hey! I’m here! Be nice!” so it’d be understandable if he thought, “OK, you fools just have to figure it out for yourselves then.”

29

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
*
First off, I’m going to make God a male when I’m speaking, that way I won’t have to keep doing the he/she/it thing.*
Now, to answer your question:

Yup, I explained my point. If there were a God, why would it be so hard for him to just pop up on everyone’s television one night and explain where he’s been, why he’s been gone and to tell everyone to stop fighting in his name?

Why would this be so hard for an entity that created all of existence? All it would take is roughly 60 seconds and then all of the religion, faith, beliefs, wars and killing in his name as we’ve known it would be changed forever.

Wouldn’t it be more logical for God to do this?
[/QUOTE]

He could. And within a day and a half people would be disagreeing about what it really meant, and likely fighting over what they saw and how important it was. Or maybe fighting over which part was the most important. Of course, there would also be those who didn’t see it or who don’t believe it even if they did. And some idiot would be trying to find a marketing angle for it.

We are human, we have choices, we have minds, we have thoughts of our own. That’s the way God designed us, in his image. It doesn’t make things easy, but it does allow us to choose him or not, and apparently that’s the way he wanted us to be, since he allowed that choice almost at the very beginning of the plan. Coercion was never part of it.

I still have never seen any explanation of how he could have made us so that we were always within his will and never did anything wrong or bad, but still with free will. I’ve seen people here claim that it’s possible, and that it’s wrong that he didn’t, but I haven’t seen anything to indicate how that would work.

30

[QUOTE=SNenc]
I doubt it would work… various sides would just say that it was something their enemies did to undermine them. A lot of places would say it was some scheme by the U.S., since we’re probably the only country with the technology to pull something like that off.

Besides, if the Gospels are real (and I’m not saying they are), God ended up seeing his son crucified the last time he tried to say “hey! I’m here! Be nice!” so it’d be understandable if he thought, “OK, you fools just have to figure it out for yourselves then.”
[/QUOTE]

God comes up with the worst possible way to reveal himself, guaranteed to reach the least amount of people, and then says “well, I tried?”

No he didn’t.

31

You know, there was a movie with a concept very much like this, only it was made so long ago that God made his announcement on the Radio. It was called The Next Voice You Hear, and it was not a comedy. Completely serious.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042786/

Of course, you never actually heard God’s voice in the movie Somebody would’ve been offended.

But if God had visually appeared on the radio, that really would’ve silenced the Doubting Thomases. If he did it today, He’d have to appear in three-D and address each viewrer by name.

32

By the way – I just noticed that James Whitmore’s character was named “Joe Smith”. To the scripters, it was probably as vanilla an American name you could get. But i wonder how the Mormons felt about it.

33

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
God comes up with the worst possible way to reveal himself, guaranteed to reach the least amount of people, and then says “well, I tried?”

No he didn’t.
[/QUOTE]

I would say the story of Jesus is known to quite a few people. If that was God’s plan, it worked out pretty well, at least in terms of raw numbers.

In terms of actual results, of course, it’s a massive failure.

34

[QUOTE=SNenc]
I would say the story of Jesus is known to quite a few people. If that was God’s plan, it worked out pretty well, at least in terms of raw numbers.

In terms of actual results, of course, it’s a massive failure.
[/QUOTE]

“Stories” don’t mean shit. Stories aren’t evidence. If God wants to prove his own existence, he needs to do it directly, not by word of mouth (especially when that alleged “word” is so compromised by contradiction, error and demonstrable fiction).

35

[QUOTE=SNenc]
In terms of actual results, of course, it’s a massive failure.
[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s what matters, right? If God is going to hold us responsible for failure to follow His commands, he better make damned sure we know he exists. I’d hate to go to hell because of God’s incompetence at marketing.

36

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
“Stories” don’t mean shit. Stories aren’t evidence. If God wants to prove his own existence, he needs to do it directly, not by word of mouth (especially when that alleged “word” is so compromised by contradiction, error and demonstrable fiction).
[/QUOTE]

Why hasn’t God revealed himself? Maybe He has, but been ignored.

Jesus said the “Kingdom of God lies within you.” Has anyone look there? It is not so much a matter of God doing something as it is you doing something. If you want something you usually have to do something to get it. Why would it be any different with God?

So why would you look around saying no God here, and no God there, etc., finally becoming satisfied that you found no evidence of God, so God must not exist, right?

Want to know God?

37

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Why hasn’t God revealed himself? Maybe He has, but been ignored.

Jesus said the “Kingdom of God lies within you.” Has anyone look there? It is not so much a matter of God doing something as it is you doing something. If you want something you usually have to do something to get it. Why would it be any different with God?

So why would you look around saying no God here, and no God there, etc., finally becoming satisfied that you found no evidence of God, so God must not exist, right?

Want to know God?
[/QUOTE]

But many people look inside themselves and don’t see God (or see a different God, like Krishna, or a non-God like Buddha). The point is, why didn’t God give us an unambiguous message? Look at the numbers in Western Europe–the percentage of people who don’t believe in God is in the low to mid double digits. If God’s message was so clear, how could this be?

38

[QUOTE=thirdwarning]
He could. And within a day and a half people would be disagreeing about what it really meant, and likely fighting over what they saw and how important it was. Or maybe fighting over which part was the most important. Of course, there would also be those who didn’t see it or who don’t believe it even if they did. And some idiot would be trying to find a marketing angle for it.
[/QUOTE]

I would think that with God knowing each of us since before we were born, he’d be able to pull off revealing to each of us, in a personal way that each of our F-ed up personalities could grasp and of which we could be utterly certain and never forget and never misunderstand, that this was no ruse. He can do that, can’t He?

39

[QUOTE=SNenc]
I doubt it would work… various sides would just say that it was something their enemies did to undermine them.
[/quote]
So you don’t think that a being with all the resources and knowledge of God could potentially come up with a simple and convincing demonstration of His existence that a significant majority of humans would find compelling? Perhaps neither you nor I are capable of conceiving of such a demonstration, but surely this is within the purview of God.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Jesus said the “Kingdom of God lies within you.” Has anyone look there? It is not so much a matter of God doing something as it is you doing something.
[/quote]
So if I look within myself but don’t find God, then what? I’m not looking hard enough? God doesn’t want me to see him? What if I find something else entirely?

I have a theory that, given sufficient time, fervor and focus, anyone can will them self into a mental state that will allow them to believe quite literally anything they truly desire to believe. That is, if I looked “within” long enough and hard enough, I probably could find God. Not that it’d make Him any more real, mind you. I could probably spiritually split a bottle of chianti with the FSM if I really wanted to.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
If you want something you usually have to do something to get it. Why would it be any different with God?
[/quote]
Can I turn this one around on God? Could it be reasonably said that if a creator actually desires any sort of meaningful relationship at all with me personally, that he ought to “have to do something to get it”? (And no, allegedly creating the universe, potentially dictating a disjointed manifesto, and then most certainly disappearing altogether doesn’t constitute “doing something.”)

40

I see by your replies that you are not interested in knowing God, you want God to dance for you, do your bidding, sorry, it just don’t work that way. Enough said.