If there were a God, don't you think he would've made him or her self known by now?

Cute. So my desire for meaningful, tangible communication with a demonstrably existent God- the very sort of communication that would allow me to honestly know God, rather than simply relying on questionable, skewed interpretations of God filtered through imperfect beings- is somehow tantamount to demanding that God “dance” for me? Really?

I just want him to pop in so I can ask a question or two. If that’s unreasonable you must take a very dim view of people who have the audacity to demand (via prayer) that God actually do labor intensive stuff like “curing grandma’s cancer.” I’ve never cured cancer myself, but I imagine it’s orders of magnitude more difficult than poking one’s head around the corner to say “Hey there!”

The kingdom of god looks a lot like internal organs.

Funny, that sounds exactly like what the typical God wants us to do for him. (Of course, the typical god also counts hypocrisy as one of his powers, so this is no contradiction.) And there’s nothing wrong with remarking on the unnecessesaryness of a supposed God’s silence in a thread about that very topic.
Speaking of that, if there is a god, and if that god would have the power to do a few minor miracles (turning water into wine, parting the pacific ocean, sending plagues of locusts to harass anyone who looks at him funny), and that god chooses not to show himself and use these miracles to demonstrate his existence, then such a god must prioritize secrecy above any benefits of revealing himself. This would be inconsistent with the image of god as held with most organized religions, who actually think that god cares about us and has no external forces on him that make it a bad idea not to reveal himself, but a preference for secrecy of actively assisting the planet make perfect sense if, say, God doesn’t care about the sufferings of the innocent or anything like that.

Personally I prefer the idea that God is in hiding, so that Cthulhu doesn’t find him and kill him. :stuck_out_tongue:

God doesn’t work for you, He is the parent, you are the child, if you wish to know God you need to go where God is – within you. As for prayer, one may ask God to cure someone, but as everyone knows it does not always happen. Prayers are better voiced to give thanks for what we have. God is personal, but He doesn’t usually do for you what you should be doing for yourself. When Jesus healed people He usually told them “your faith has made you whole.”

But back to the question, do you want to know God?

God doesn’t work for you, He is the parent, you are the child, if you wish to know God you need to go where God is – within you. Actually, one of the lessons to be learned here in the physical is humility. Ask, and it shall be given, knock, and the door will open, but you still have to do something. As for prayer, one may ask God to cure someone, but as everyone knows it does not always happen. Prayers are better voiced to give thanks for what we have. God is personal, but He doesn’t usually do for you what you should be doing for yourself. When Jesus healed people He usually told them “your faith has made you whole.”

But back to the question, do you want to know God?

Good.

Damn. I knew it was too good to be true.

D’ya have kids, lekatt? Were I a father, I would strive to actively guide and inform my child throughout their life. I wouldn’t arbitrarily refuse to assist them or offer advice of any sort while they muddled through life in ignorance. Perhaps you’d do differently?

Never let it be said that I ignored one of your questions. Of course I want to know God. Lay some God on me, brother! Who could turn down the most knowledgeable/powerful being in existence?

…Ah, but there’s that word again. Existence. Funny thing, existence. :wink:

This question presumes that God exists. I don’t.

For the sake of argument, though, if we presume that God exists and that God wants people to know that he exists, then the onus is on him to show himself, not on us to accept with it no evidence. Even saying we should look for God presumes we’ve ever been given any reason to look, which we haven’t. I don’t expect God to “dance” or do anything else for me for the same reason I don’t expect smurfs to appear in my refrigerator.

I tried taking this seriously, but it just sounds like the worst chatup line ever.

“Hey, baby, want to know a being of ultimate love? Let’s just say i’m not talking an out-of-body experience…”

An omnipotent god could easily come up with a demonstration that could make everyone believe. Aside from repeated demonstrations that were visible planet wide, there is always the fact that being able to do anything, all he has to do is say “Everyone belive” and everyone will believe.

It would be trivial for a being with the power to create a universe to arrange a demonstration that would be completely unambiguous and convincing.

But (again assuming for the sake of argument that the basic tenets of Christianity are true) god was not surprised by the Jesus’ death. Beyond the problem of trying to surprise someone who is all knowing and all seeing, there is the fact that apparently the single most important reason for Jesus to live was so he could die for our sins. Both Jesus and God were in on the act, it was planned from the beginning.

There is a middle ground. With unambiguous knowledge of god’s existence, we could still have free will. The consequences would be clearer, and it would be much easier to love your fellow man as yourself with the sure and certain knowledge that it is the better way, but we could still screw up as we wanted.

How does the knowledge of god’s existence take away our free will?

That’s a misinterpretation of what people are saying. In order to have a personal relationship with God, you must first believe that He exists. But if He remains hidden, it is impossible for many people (myself included) to believe in Him. I don’t disbelieve in God’s existence out of stubborness or perversity–I disbelieve because I don’t see the evidence for His existence. So He can hardly blame me for being an atheist. If He doesn’t want people like me to be an atheist, He needs to quit being so coy. That is not a request for God to ‘do my bidding.’

Like several other people on this thread, I see that comment as absurd and illogical.

But atheists and non-believers have to understand how theism works, if only to know their “enemy”.

The genius of religion is that it has taken what SHOULD be its weak spot, namely, lack of any evidence, and turned it into a strength.

Under normal circumstances, you and I and any reasonable person would say that people who are willing to fight for, die for, or live their lives for an unseen, unproven, unlikely superbeing who wants them to do this or believe that are exhibiting behaviour that is best described as illogical or downright crazy.

But religion, which has been around a long time and has learned many tricks, has turned the act of firly believing something for which there is no evidence into a VIRTUE, or perhaps a “gift”. The Gift of Faith. From whom does this gift come? From the invisible unproven being in whom you believe without any supporting evidence. (Note the circularity of the reasoning.)

I remember some Catholic friends of mine to whom in my University days, I would point out that there is no evidence that God exists. They kept answering me: “It’s a matter of FAITH!” As if that one declaration explained and justified their clinging to unsupported and unlikely beliefs.

So finally I realized that we were engaged in a dialogue of the deaf:

Since Faith means believing without evidence, all we were doing is this: I was pointing out that they were believing without evidence, and they were answering me that “It’s a matter of believing without evidence.” as if that settled the argument.

Thus does religion insulate its believers from reason.

I don’t think it’s praiseworthy to believe without proof, but I do think it’s an unavoidable part of the human condition. We all {or almost all for the nitpickers} believe in some things without scientific objective evidence. It’s just a very normal common part of human existence. A large portion of our existence is subjective rather than objective.

I can hardly wait.

Then God could come back in a day and a half and explain it all over again. He could broadcast a daily TV show. Nothing has to be any more ambiguous or unclear than he wants it to be, He is omnipotent.

What does “choose him” mean, and how are we supposed to know what he wants us to do if he’s never willing to tell us or even give a single shred of evidence that he exists ata ll.

Leaving aside the fact that free will is a logically incoherent concept and pretending that such a thing is possible, God could achieve the end you suggest simply by using his omniscience to create only people who he knows will choose good.

I don’t see how knowing that God exsist would hamper the exercise of free will, though.

It is just an analogy and not intended to be similar in every way. However, made every effort to conceal" is a matter of opinion. To most believers our heavenly father is readily available if you are willing to make the effort to communicate. Like most most “kids” the problem is usually an unwillingness to listen.

You can ask Dad, or Mom, or however you conceive your deity, but you have to be willing to listen.

As a parent I know that my physical presence and the fact that I obviously existed as a being right in front of them did not prevent my kids from questioning my knowledge or authority when they wanted to exert their own will. So your implication that if only God made his existence more clear then we’d be better children, doesn’t jibe with my experience as a parent. Know what I mean?

Sorry, …I don’t get your point here.

Getting by without believing in the Christian God, Jesus, Allah or whomever, is not the same thing as getting by without faith. IMHO all humans operate on some faith held beliefs. Whether they qualify for the “religious” label is irrelevant.

But there is a definite difference between faith and blind faith. What, besides religion, requires blind faith?

No, it’s not necessary to believe in God to have a personal relationship. Many near death experiencers were atheists. Thousands of people have had spiritual experiences with God out of the blue. Wham. God is not hidden, His Kingdom is within you. God doesn’t seem to care whether you believe in Him or not.

I see your point but I think it’s trying to squeeze the subjective into the objective and fails in the attempt. I keep stressing that all humans must believe some things on faith in order to function. We don’t require scientific objective evidence established by our personal objective experience and experiments to function day to day.

Why would you assume that some act like that would change everything? I can’t think of any good reason to assume that would be true given my understanding of how humans function.

Let’s imagine that God, just for today, planted the knowledge of his existence, omnipotence, benevolence, and love, as a surety in every human heart and mind. Knowing what you know about human nature how long would it take for most people to explain away that knowledge,and call it something else in order to pursue their own desires, once today had passed?