If we had to, could we identify Unknown Soldiers?

Factual Questions
1

I mean if we absolutely had to, if the world depended on it (granted such a scenario is unlikely to happen). I’m not suggesting that we actually try it, since it would ruin the whole point of the various tombs. Ours is a World War I casualty brought back from France and buried in Westminster Abbey, ‘They buried him among the kings’. The US has several, the most well known interred in the Tomb of the Unknowns at Arlington.

How difficult would it be to positively identify the various individuals interred in Tombs of the Unknowns and how would we go about it?

2

In the US they say because of DNA there won’t be anymore unknowns. For the current unknowns they need some clue as to who the person is to use DNA (to find relatives) but that is not possible in most cases.

3

I believe the unknowns are from known battles or battlefields, so the first step would be DNA testing of the remains, followed by DNA testing of the descendants or the remains, if any, of the known relatives, if any, of the unrecovered dead from those battles. This could yield sufficient matching to determine the identity of the deceased.

ETA: Without any known relatives, a given missing soldier could not be matched, so we’d have to hope he wasn’t one of those who had none.

4

The Unknown Soldier from Vietnam who was interred at Arlington was identified and he was eventually reburied in his home town of St. Louis. More sophisticated DNA testing means that it is unlikely that there will ever be another truly unknown soldier. As long as there is available comparison DNA, it should be possible to identify other unknowns; the problem is figuring out who it might be and finding someone to compare. King Richard III was recently identified by DNA after over 500 years, so it’s possible as long as you can find someone to match. Good historical records of soldiers, regiments, etc. would help, as would wider DNA databases where you might find a hit.

5

The issue is complicated by the fact that in World War II and Korea, at least, the unknowns were taken from multiple locations. The bodies were placed in identical coffins and someone picked one; the others was buried elsewhere. Therefore, no one knows for sure where the soldier died.

It was easier for Vietnam because there were fewer soldiers missing in action (where the unknowns would be found): 2500, as opposed to about 5000 for Korea and 30,00 for WWII.

6

In Spain there have been people who got buried as “unknown”, sometimes with no more identification than apparent ideology (all that could be identified was that, not even a specific battalion), who got identified in the last few decades. Also people from unmarked mass graves. These would be people who got identified 60-70 years after their death: in the first case, those who buried them actually did their best to provide ID but simply didn’t have the information; in the second, providing ID was the exact opposite of what they had in mind.

Normally the people from the mass graves will be locals or have been prisoners nearby, which helps find matches. The people who got buried as “unknown” died in the area but may have been taken there from a distant battle; the cases I’ve heard reported started with the detective work of finding out “where did soldiers who’d been grievously wounded in Such Battle get sent, as the last letter from our relative was sent two days before that battle”.

7

Most “unknowns” are merely parts and pieces. In WWI, for instance, there were some 200,000 British fatalities that were never found, as they had been literally blown to pieces or buried in the muck that was the French countryside. It’s impractical, if not impossible, to identify a single part in that instance. WWII was even more murderous, with far more unidentifiable casualties.

8

The Unknown from Vietnam was identified by DNA and reinterred in his hometown cemetary*.

It depends. Do you have an idea of which unit and formation the “unknown” is from. Do you have good records of that unit or formation? In the case of Expeditionary warfare or COIN like Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, unknowns are unlikely (for the occupiers at least). Less so in other wars. Someone who gets killed behind enemy lines and is buried by them has a higher chance of being and remaining “unknown”.

9

Israel used to have a tomb of the unknown soldier, but since every possible candidate was eventually identified, they changed it to the tomb for soldiers whose resting place is unknown - which, if you think about it, is the exact opposite.

10

In the recent CWGC reinterrments at Fromelles they tried to match identities but have only got 96 (so far) out of 250.

11

Amazingly, most of the crew from the recovered Civil War submersible CSS Hunley were ID’ed via DNA testing…

12

Yes, but that was reletively easy. Even though fnly the commander’s identity was known, they had well preserved bodies, were a small sample and time and location oo death were well known as well as service and branch. They had good surviving records.

13

Mr Kobayashi, I’m guessing you are from the UK. The actual story of the unknown warrior is fascinating, but in a lot of cases unknown (The warrior is in Westminster Abbey as you say, and it is the only floor level grave that cannot be walked upon. You can tread on Kings and Queens etc but not him).

However, back to the actual body. It was recovered from the early battlefields in the Great War where only white Englishmen had fought- could not have had a Colonial soldier- could we? There were actually 4 bodies bought in and an officer selected one without knowing what area the body was recovered from.

The body was transported back to the UK on the destroyer HMS Verdun and there was a great ceremony. A huge outgoing of grief in that a lot of mothers were hoping it may have been their lost son etc. There was also an extreme amount of anger among the veterans because of the publicity Lloyd-George generated,- the times were very tough and the claim was that the dead were being treated better than the living. It probably has merit.

There was even further political turmoil when the American unknown warrior was invested with the V.C. whereas the Belgian unknown warrior had to make do with a lesser medal. (This is all from memory).

However, as to the original question. Discovering who the unknown warrior is probably would not be difficult given the narrow choice of battlefields from which the selection was made (and this was before the UK had massed huge armies).

However, the sticking point of course is that the body may not even be English- he could be German.

14

I believe the NYC Medical Examiner’s office, to this day, houses thousands and thousands of pieces of unidentified victims of 9/11.
No cite, but I’m fairly sure I’ve got it right. I read it once, and noted it strongly at the time (I pass the building a few times a week). I don’t have the heart to research it.

15

It’s depressing to read about those sorts of things. The information I posted above was from the book “Into The Silence”, which, while being about Mallory’s attempt on Everest, has a lengthy portion devoted to the British in WWI. It’s awful reading, but very interesting.

16

This sentence was written incorrectly and I don’t want to leave it so:

I believe every single victim of 9/11 has been identified. There are thousands (I think) of pieces at the ME that are not identified.

I believe–and am happy to be shown wring or right here–that there is no corporeal ID of anything at all for the overwhelming majority of victims.

17

I think they look for uniform buttons and the like to prove Britishness.

Stephen Fry tells a horrific story about the ceremony to inter the UK unknown soldier. It was a splendid occasion. The Royal Family were there and donated a priceless national treasure ancient sword to be buried with him. As well as generals and admirals, 100 VC winners were there. And present as well (and this is the killer) were 100 women who had each lost their husbands … and ALL their sons… in the war.

18

I think from the uniform of the time they could also tell regiment and company.

19

Depends if shoulder titles or cap badge were present, or some regimental link on personal items.
Brigadier-General L. J. Wyatt, the man who chose the unknown soldier, wrote the following in 1939, replying to the many inaccurate accounts which had been published,

‘I was GOC of British troops in France and Flanders and Director of the War Graves Commission, and the idea of an unknown warrior was put to me by the then Adjutant- General, Sir George Macdonagh, in response to Bishop Ryle’s suggestion, which I thought was a wonderful gesture.
‘In October, 1 received a notification from the War Office that King George V had approved the suggestion, and the proposal that the burial should be in Westminster Abbey on November 11. I issued instructions that the body of a British soldier, which it would be impossible to identify, should be brought in from each of the four battle areas — the Aisne, the Somme, Arras and Ypres, on the night of November 7, and placed in the chapel of St. Pol. The party bringing in each body was to return at once to its area, so that there should be no chance of their knowing on which the choice fell.
‘Reporting to my headquarters office at St. Pol at midnight on November 7, Colonel Gell, one of my staff, announced that the bodies were in the chapel and the men who had brought them had gone. With Colonel Gell, passing the guard which had been specially mounted, I thereupon entered the chapel.
‘The four bodies lay on stretchers, each covered by a Union Jack; in front of the altar was the shell of the coffin which had been sent from England to receive the remains. I selected one, and with the assistance of Colonel Gell, placed it in the shell; we screwed down the lid. The other bodies were removed and reburied in the military cemetery outside my headquarters at St. Pol.
‘I had no idea even of the area from which the body I selected had come; no one else can know it.
‘The following morning, the 8th, the Church of England, the Roman Catholic and the Non-Conformist chaplains held a service in the chapel. On the same day, at noon, the shell, under escort, was sent to Boulogne, where it was placed in a plain oak coffin, with wrought iron hands, through one of which was passed a Crusader’s sword from the Tower of London collection. While the coffin lay in the Chapelle Ardente in Boulogne Castle a company of French infantry mounted guard over it.
‘The next morning, November 9, carried by the pall-bearers, who were selected from NCOs of the British and Dominion troops, it was placed on a French military wagon and under the escort of French troops taken to Boulogne Quay, where a British destroyer was waiting.’