just to throw another log into the fire, i don’t think guns should be illegal, ammunition should be. having guns as a gun collector is fine, but on every bullet, there should be a serial number showing where it was made, when it was made, where it was shipped from, at what store it was sold, and who sold it. that way, if a bullet is found at a crime scene, then the person who sold the bullet in the back woods mom and pop gun store can be held equally accountable.
Here in Canada, we have universal health care. We also have mandatory seat belt laws, mandatory bicycle helmet laws, heavy taxes on cigarettes (and increasingly outlawed cigarette smoking). Our government is also proposing a complete ban on handguns.
Every time someone proposes a new law along these lines, the argument is ALWAYS, “Hey, as long as I have to pay for your health care, I have some right to say that you can’t do things that use more of the system”.
In addition, in some countries that have universal health care, they are talking about refusing health treatment to people who engage in the ‘wrong’ activities’. If you smoke, you might not get that triple bypass you need, or at least you’ll drop down the queue behind non-smokers who ‘deserve’ it more. At least when health care is private you have a choice of paying more for health insurance if you are a smoker. But when when the government is the only game in town, if they decide they aren’t going to cover smokers, you’re out of luck.
We’re just at the start of the slippery slope on this. There’s already serious talk about taxing fast food and junk food. How long before there is a tax on ski lift tickets to help pay for broken legs?
Absent the principle that government has no right to tell you how to care for your own body, all these issues devolve into power plays. If we don’t get a tax on ski lift tickets, the reason will only be because the ski tourism industry has more political pull than the anti-skiing lobby. God help you, however, if you engage in an activity that doesn’t have a powerful lobby protecting your side of the debate.
The alternative is that just let people who can’t afford health insurance in a gutter somewhere to die. We have to strike a balance somewhere in a civilized society.
Psst? Least? It’s a pretty trivial job to make a bullet.
So?
What is your point?
It’s like you’re trying to frighten us Yanks with the horrible prospect of a “slippery slope” – one that will land us in a ditch full of silk-eiderdown pillows.
The Dems actually need to become liberal again. They need to start pushing hard on issues like the environment, education, universal health care, reproductive choice, gay rights, etc. They need quit trying to worry about being patriotically correct and start loudly calling Bush on his bullshit and condemning Bush’s war for the crime that it is.They need to stand up for science and condemn theocracy. They need to work on rolling back tax cuts and amping up social spending. They need to start some hardcore regulations of private business, including a much higher miniumum wage and manadatory benefits. They need to work on legalizing gay marriage and safeguarding abortion on demand with no restrictions. They need to push to legalize pot. They need to actually be a liberal party again. Right now we don’t have a leftist party. We have a right wing conservative party and a moderately right wing conservative party. I’d be happy if the Dems just got back within spitting distance of the center.
Diogenes the Cynic, awk! Why didn’t I think of that! I’d forgotten that I could even dream of it!
For some, I’m sure that it is a back-door. For others, it is relief from pain and definitely not a side issue in their lives. Your only complaint with legalization is that in your position as an authority on our motives, you detect that we are not being entirely straight forward about which perfectly reasonable motive we have. Say whut?
At least our own concerns with the anti-abortion agenda of many Conservatives are based on something we actually object to!
One of my granddaughters turns sixteen next month. By my calculations, she is only a year or two older than your daughter. Heaven forbid that it should ever come to this, but no one in that stupid Congress should be making decisions involving their individual reproductive systems. Those are individual medical decisions that can vary greatly from female to female.
Do you really want to say that PBAs should be forbidden even if they ruin or damage the health of the mother? Could you really support that? Thank goodness it is unConstitutional! But you can’t blame that one on the Democrats!
And I disagree with you totally that the “radicals” control the abortion debate in the Democratic party. I’ve been a feminist for 35 years and I don’t even know any radicals personally. “Yes, I radically want social and economic equality” doesn’t even make sense.
I haven’t noticed. I’ll think about it when I get back from visiting my 93 year old mother at the assisted care facility. I still think we can find some mighty fine ways of cutting the budget before we prolong the suffering of the GI generation.
Cut the waste first, then cut back on the meat. We just don’t want a Democratic Party that is Republican Lite.
About the freeze on government spending: I remember that Nixon did just that. Anyone remember if that was helpful?
I disagree with the idea that Democrats have to go soft on gun control.* I’m sure there are single-issue voters like ExTank that would be lost, but I actually don’t think there are too many of them. Support for the UN, basic abortion rights, and gun control are all long-term winning positions. I can probably dig up some polls on the internet if you want.
Democrats seem to actually think that the entire country is made up of gun-toting rednecks,** and that’s why they can’t win elections. When they try to play down to that stereotype, they just look silly. If Hillary wins the nomination and tries to go duck hunting like Kerry did, she’ll look even worse than Dukakis on his tank.
As much as I’m against the little trademarked cliche’s that some Democrats seem to think substitute for policy, they do need to market gun control better. Tough on crime. There are all sorts of statistics out there that show that gun control lowers the crime rate. Places like Europe have much lower murder rates then we do and it’s not because they’re just so much better people than us.
Tough on crime. And do it with a straight face.
*Unless they decide to go totally libertarian and legalize drugs too, at least then they’d be consistent. But that’s not going to happen.
**Not putting you in this category, ExTank, unless, of course, you want to be.
:eek:
Have you been in a freaking coma for the last 5 years?
I don’t think so. Perhaps you are thinking of the 90-day wage and price freeze he decreed in 1971?
It would be stupid to move towards the right if only to pick up a few stray conservative votes. Half the frickin’ country doesn’t vote. Democrats need to become the party of accountability and transparency in government and stand by our liberal values first and try to draw in some of the 50 million who feel that they have no voice. Many would agree with us, but they don’t see the party at large standing on those principles, all they see old-school Clinton style triangulation. They have no faith in how the party is run, nor do many of us. We need to clean our house of corruption and vet candidates that will be accountable. We need more optional public funding of elections as in Arizona and Maine and other election reforms to really help this happen. We need universal health-care that will lower business costs universally. They need jobs to support some needed demand-side economics. They need a party with a long-term credible agenda that supports their needs.
Don’t get me wrong; I feel this country is far too divided and needs more common ground for both sides to stand on. We need to work with conservatives. But not at the expense of only appeasing fence sitters. Let voters come our way because we’ve been able to convince them of the practicality of the liberal approach. Not because we are willing to compromise on principle. And to do that the Democrats need to gain truly equal time in the mainstream media. Not sound bites, time to make our arguments at length. Most conservatives have been so mislead by mega-corporate media that’s been tilting ever more to right since the time of Reagan that they jump to all the wrong conclusions. There are few places where they can get the entire picture. I think we’d have far more productive compromises on both sides if we can shut down the noise machine.
And gun control?
I mean, if guns are outlawed, how will be shoot the capitalists? 
I should think that in many, if not most, cases, such a serial number would be unreadable on a used bullet.
Yes.
This is another issue on which the “Democratic” position is in accord with public opinion polls already. A majority of Americans endorse support for gun control in the abstract, and support goes up for many specific gun control bills or proposals. For example, a majority support licensing requirements for handguns and fingerprinting bullets, and a vast majority supported the assault weapons ban.
On the other hand, a majority supports the right of the individual to own firearms, and a majority oppose banning handguns altogether. These are not positions with which most democrats would disagree. The only way that Republicans win on these issues is by lying or mischaracterizing the Democratic position to suggest they want these things. AND THEY DO THIS NO MATTER WHAT DEMOCRATS DO.
Thus, the Democrats should in fact, not back-burner gun control, but should push forward the truth about their positions so that there is something else out there than the Republican’s boogey man scare bullshit. The Democrats should have a spine, and if they don’t, they should at least be comforted by the fact that here again, most Americans agree with them in the first place.
The bottom line: same as any other issue. Stand up and fight for what you believe in. Running on any issue is simply weak, and nobody wants to support weakness.
Ooh, I remember that thread from a couple years ago. Some state (probably CA, but that could just be my bias showing) made such a proposal and it was generally torn to shreds here in GD.
It was indeed California and it was only eight months ago.
Ah, but there’s the rub. The Republicans have cobbled together a whole lot of “one issue” voters on many different issues, and glommed them onto mainstream core Republicans.
Gay marriage alone got out millions last election. Gun control gets more. People who hate affirmative action (and closet bigots) are another group. Abortion opponents. They’re gearing up to make people who won’t vote for a woman for president another (and, like the gay marriage issue, it’s beautiful strategy - most people won’t admit to not being able to vote for a woman president, but when they’re alone in the voting booth…)
If you try to change too much at once, you scare people off. Dems need to focus on one thing at a time.
Focus.
And imagine how small the numbers would be on each pellet in a shotgun blast!
Seriously, shotgun shells are trivial to “recycle” - you can get machines to make your own shot.