I don’t believe that the Bible was the Creation of man, but rather God’s Word.
ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?
Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.
Do you maintain that the Bible just appeared or that god spoke to the authors of the Bible?
“The Lord gave the word: great was the company of them that published it.” Psalm 68:11
I believe that He empowered them to translate it perfectly because, “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.” Philippians 4:13
ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?
Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.
You don’t want to get into the perfection of biblical translation – it’s anything but perfect. I assume you mean they were able to pen the original version perfectly from god’s words, but you cite an imperfect man’s words as evidence; moreover, imperfect biblical translation leads to different literal meanings. How can you have faith in meaning of a book which is fundamentally different from the original in certain areas due to translation errors?
Examples please. BTW, since we’re talking about the Bible, give me some Bible verses that contradict each other.
ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?
Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.
MY PLEASURE! 
Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill.”
Leviticus 24:17 “And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.”
vs.
Exodus 32:27 “Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor.”
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 “Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.”
Numbers 15:36 “And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
Hosea 13:16 “they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up.”
For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see “Murder, He Wrote”, chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).
Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 “Thou shalt not bear false witness.”
Proverbs 12:22 “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.”
vs.
I Kings 22:23 “The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.”
II Thessalonians 2:11 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.
Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 “Thou shalt not steal.”
Leviticus 19:13 “Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him.”
vs.
Exodus 3:22 “And ye shall spoil the Egyptians.”
Exodus 12:35-36 “And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians.”
Luke 19:29-34 “[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him.”
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.
Shall we keep the sabbath?
Exodus 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.”
Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”
Numbers 15:32,36 “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
vs.
Isaiah 1:13 “The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity.”
John 5:16 “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.”
Colossians 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.”
Shall we make graven images?
Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water.”
Leviticus 26:1 “Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone.”
Deuteronomy 27:15 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.”
vs.
Exodus 25:18 “And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.”
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 “For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]”
Are we saved through works?
Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works.”
Romans 3:20,28 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.”
Galatians 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.”
vs.
James 2:24 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
Matthew 19:16-21 “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven.”
The common defense here is that “we are saved by faith and works.” But Paul said “not of works.”
Should good works be seen?
Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works.”
I Peter 2:12 “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”
vs.
Matthew 6:1-4 “Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret.”
Matthew 23:3,5 “Do not ye after their [Pharisees’] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men.”
Should we own slaves?
Leviticus 25:45-46 “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever.”
Genesis 9:25 “And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
Exodus 21:2,7 “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do.”
Joel 3:8 “And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.”
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.”
Colossians 3:22 “Servants, obey in all things your masters.”
vs.
Isaiah 58:6 “Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke.”
Matthew 23:10 “Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.”
Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.
Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord; I change not.”
Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.”
Ezekiel 24:14 “I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent.”
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.
Exodus 32:14 “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.”
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made h
Translations are a problem. There are many who believe thet the King James is the Absolute and True Word of God. I’m not entirely sure why, but what the heck. If I could read Latin, I prefer to go by the Vulgate, myself.
Anyhoo, as to cross-translation contradictions, here’s one I posted earlier in this thread, :Luke 23:3
Two very different meanings, wouldn’t you agree?
-andros-
Minor problem with your verse there, jenkinsfan: It’s in the New Testament.
As an analogy, say I had another book, called The Really, Really New & Improved Testament. Say that it said some things which contradicted the New Testament. Say that it was said that it was inspired.
What would you do?
That is exactly what happened back then, you know. The Jews were told, “Hey, guess what? A bunch of that stuff there? Out the window. New rules. What, you didn’t get the memo? Here, have a pork chop…”
And my response that if everyone looked at the Bible as fundamentally as you do, nobody would have become a Christian, and the best you can do is quote from John, which Jews do not feel is the word of God.
The Koran says it’s the infallible word of God, and it came around 600 years after the NT. Would you like me to quote from the Book of Mormon to show how the Mormons are right after all? :rolleyes:
Sorry, but it is obvious that you do not understand your own faith, nor the faith of your spiritual anscestors with that response.
Because if you WERE the equivalent of a Jewish Fundie back then, YOU WOULD NOT READ JOHN, because IT CONTRADICTED WHAT WAS IN THE TORAH!
Either tell me that Jesus indeed did live up to all of the prophesies in the OT, that the OT said, “the messiah will need two trips here to get it right,” and that the arrival of Jesus did NOT overturn Levitical Law, or admit that if you were as devout then as you are now, you would be Jewish and have remained.
You cannot refute the evidence, jenkinsfan. And if you say that the NEW evidence (aka the NT) is the “real” evidence, then you logically leave open the possibility that a new prophet could write this Really, Really New & Improved Testament, and that you - as long as you heard of - not witnessed yourself either, JUST HEARD OF - some parlor tricks by some pals of this new messiah, that you would dump the New Testament and Christ in favor of what this new book says.
And I don’t think you would do that, jenkinsfan. But you expected it of the Jews back then, and you expect it of everyone else 2,000 years later.
Why is that again?
Yer pal,
Satan
http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two weeks, three days, 19 hours, 51 minutes and 50 seconds.
713 cigarettes not smoked, saving $89.14.
Life saved: 2 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes.
I’ll answer your contradictions inside your quote using the bold font.
BTW, I don’t have enought time to answer all the verses you posted. I just did the first few today.
ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?
Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.
[quote]
Jenkinsfan wrote:**
I Kings 22:23 “The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.”
II Thessalonians 2:11 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.
God didn’t lie, but He allowed them to be fooled by an evil spirit just as He will do in the future.
quote]**
The "god speaking evil and God sending delusion doesn’t sound like God allowing people to be fooled. It seems pretty straight forward. God is fucking with people. He didn’t just allow them to be fooled by an evil spirit, he sent it. Why would god do such a thing. If I send someone to tell you a lie, I’m not techniclly lying but, the intent is there.
history repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce - Karl Marx
I wasn’t referring to contradiction between individual passages in the Bible, I was referring to inadequacies in the translations from Hebrew, Coptic, Greek and Latin to the English you’re so eager to quote. There isn’t a one to one correspondence in vocabulary, nor does the vernacular hold the same meaning as our common parlence. If you really want some serious examples, I’ll break out slew of resources including my fiancee who studies precisely this topic and the impacts it has had on Christianity. My question still stands.
Jenkinsfan said:
Ah, so because some guy did tricks before Penn & Teller, that automatically means you assume he is the “true” god and they aren’t? Or are you assuming this because you already believe it, as you have indicated?
The point is, you asked why we might not believe in Christ’s divinity if we were alive then. Well, you don’t believe in Penn & Teller’s divinity and they do “miracles” all the time. So why should anybody have believed in Christ’s?
oldscratch:
Concerning the question if God lies or not.
In the verses you quote God does not lie directly nor approve of nor sanction man’s lying. One could argue that all that happens on earth is permitted by God - He could stop it if He saw fit. He even permitted Satan to cause Job to suffer - a much more interesting case. But that does not mean that He is the source of all such things. They just afford Him opportunities, as here, to accomplish what He is after. As they are useful to Him, He permits them to continue for a season. Like Judas. Eventually, those instruments no longer useful, all such spirits and men will be judged by being cast into the eternal lake of fire. That is neither approval nor sanction, but merely proof of God’s sovereignty.
The basic point is that by allowing the spirit to lie, God is not Himself lying. After all, God allows us all to lie, but He is not a liar for allowing us to lie.
Lastly, I ask you to please refrain from using such vulgar language when you are speaking of my God. There are more effective ways of making your point than resorting to profanity.
Satan said:
" The Jews were told, “Hey, guess
what? A bunch of that stuff there? Out the window. New rules. What, you didn’t get
the memo? Here, have a pork chop…”
Hmmm. Maybe this thing of mine WILL catch on.
I better get started on that New, New Testament.
He who believes in me… shall not want for pork.
jenkinsfan:
oldscratch’s post was in response to this by jenkinsfan:
which was in turn in respobse to this by Nen:
Are you admitting that the term “murder” was mistranslated as “killing”?
jenkinsfan:
And yet again you’d rather resort to absurdaties than admit that you’re wrong. There’s a big difference between allowing a spirit to lie and sending a spirit to lie.
Well, gee, that really makes me want to worship your God :rolleyes:.
Jenkinsfan:
So, it is okay to commit evil as defined by God, so long as you are doing it when told by God? And you don’t see a problem in this? You don’t see a contradiction here?
Let’s draw up a little example:
The Almighty Lord of Martial Arts Glitch says thou shalt not kick above the belt. If thou dost kick above the belt thou shalt be damned in my eyes, and I will not give you a belt promotion.
So, then later Glitch comes along and says. Go ahead, kick 'em above the belt. It’s okay, I’ll let it pass because I am telling you to.
Wouldn’t you interpret this as Glitch condoning kicking above the belt?
So, replace kicking above the belt with killing/murder and replace Glitch with God.
I think this was supposed to be directed at me (since I wrote it), so I will answer it as such.
**
quote:
In the verses you quote God does not lie directly nor approve of nor sanction man’s lying.**
I must have lost you somewhere. OK. Let’s take it from the top.
Let’s notice a few things about this passage I Kings 22:20-23 and its context. Another thank you goes to http://www.christian-thinktank.com
-
The prophesy is ‘against’ Ahab, a particularly evil king of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. He typically gathered false prophets around him (as “Yes” men) and complained about the prophet Micaiah (who uttered the above) that he only 'spoke bad things about him, so Ahab did not consult with him much! (I Kgs 22.8,18)
-
God had already judged Ahab and decreed his death in 21.19, for , among other things, the innocent death of Naboth (I Kgs 22.1-19).
-
The sending of the ‘lying spirits’ is to EVENTUATE Ahab’s judgment (I Kgs 22.20).
-
The actual word for ‘persuade’ is ‘seduce’. God asks who will ‘seduce/overpower’ Ahab in going to his death (no mention of ‘deception’ yet). A spirit volunteers to be a ‘lying spirit’ and God grants permission, with a “go and do it”. Seduction DOES NOT necessarily include deception. There were OTHER forms of the verb, and other words that could have brought that meaning out–if so intended, but they are not used in this passage.
5.This ‘putting of the lying spirit’ is called part of a ‘disaster decree (judgment)’ in 22.23. This is a clear case of ‘confusion’ or false decisions AS A JUDGMENT.
- Finally, notice that this passage is BEING GIVEN face to face to AHAB! Micaiah, in the presence of the other prophets and even the king of the Southern Kingdom, is describing this vision IN DETAIL to AHAB! Ahab has every opportunity to reject the lying spirits and accept the true message from God! Kaiser makes this point clearly: “This principle is further confirmed when we note that the passage in question is a vision that Micaiah reveals to Ahab. God is telling Ahab, ‘Wise up. I am allowing your prophets to lie to you.’ In a sense, God is revealing further truth to Ahab rather than lying to him. If God were truly trying to entrap Ahab into a life-threatening situation, he would not have revealed the plan to Ahab! Even so, Ahab refuses to heed God’s truth and follows his prophets’ advice anyway.”
I would need much more proof that God exists than a book written some 2000 years ago. Consider this: Why do we not believe as much in the Greek and Roman Mythology? Are we not provided as much proof? God himself would have to present formiddable proof of his existance.
No.
I refuse to worship something that could be so evil in its love for an entire population.
Things that most modern Christians accept concerning the Crucifixion - Resurrection that probably would not have been believed by the early (1st century) followers.
1- Jesus was “The only begotten son” of God.
The Son of Man/The Son of God Messianic titles indicating
Sent or Annointed by God
2- Jesus was born of a virgin
3- Jesus rose (was resurrected) physically from the dead
4- Jesus was the atonement / sacrifice for mankind’s sins
5- Jesus ascended to heaven and is part of the Trinity
6- Jesus will return to earth and rule for 1,000 years
7-The return of Jesus will lead to judgement of the wicked and their being condemned to hell.
Therefore basing my decision on the knowledge available at that time I hopefully would reach the same decision I have in this reality … Jesus a prophet , teacher , wise and righteous individual is worth modeling my life after… However not a diety ( GOD IS GOD )… Sorry but I see the majority of what is now Christianity to be after the fact theology / philosophy
I will be happy to give detail arguements concerning each listed point but I think the lenght might bore others.