As for the OP… I don’t know, and hopefully, it is not a decision I will have to worry about. That said, like any matters involving a fetus, the woman has the ultimate decisions.
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, one week, six days, 13 hours, 14 minutes and 5 seconds.
5422 cigarettes not smoked, saving $677.76.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 19 hours, 50 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
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When my sister was about 4 months pregnant the baby had a stroke. The Doctors said that she had severe damage to the left side of her brain. They were sure that she would be blind, unable to talk, and paralyzed on her right side.
She is a 18 months old now. She talks at the level of a 23 month old. She has lots of movement on her right side and they are sure that she will be walking by the time she is two. She does have vision problems, but she is not blind. And, she is happy and brings joy into all of our lives. She smiles all day. She kisses everyone who picks her up. She scoots all over the living room on her but looking for her books.
She gets excited and sings “Pop Pop Pop” when her grandpa walks into the room.
Doctors can be wrong, and they often are. I think that if you are dealing with something as serious as whether a child gets to live or die you need to error on the side of caution. Doctors (even specialists, my sis saw two) often have no idea how a child with brain damage is going to turn out. If my sister had ended her pregnancy she would have made a terrible mistake, and she never would have even known.
Thanks everyone who’s posted so far; your opinions are all extremely valid, and helpful in my thought process. With the exception of Satan’s, which I’m convinced was just an excuse to add another post to his meter. (I like the guy, but sheesh.)
I would like to hear more guys on the subject; I know many of you are pro-choice and leave it up to the woman, but assume for the sake of argument it’s up to you. (trying to bring you out of your “I don’t have to think about it” holes)
Huh. Well, while I’ll admit that I entered with a joke, fact is that I DID raise a point that I don’t think was raised yet. To wit: If I say “abort the sucker” to my wife/girlfriend/woman I impregnated and the woman does not agree with my logic, that kid is gonna be born. Conversely, no amount of pleading or logical discourse will MAKE my wife/girlfriend/woman I impregnated have a kid if she wants an abortion - for this or any other reasons.
The reason I am pro-choice is because (among other reasons) I don’t feel qualified to make a decision without having to be in that situation. Sorry if you feel it’s a cop-out. I’d certainly give my opinion, mind you, but even if I was a jerk and thought it was my way or the highway, the woman still has the final vote whether I like it or not.
And I stand by what I said in the OP. I’d rather not think about making such a decision.
I will also add that I would need to deal with SPECIFIC things here that do not lend themselves to a hypothetical even if I was in charge of the decision. Exactly what the doctor says, exactly what any second (or third or more) opinions have to say, exactly what my ownj conscience says - all things which are very personal to the issue itself should it arise. And all of which would no doubt influence me.
In a nutshell, there are way too many shades of gray here for me to give a definitive answer either way.
I will add, however, that I would not fault the people who decide to abort in any way. That is up to them, and not my concern.
I do hope this is more satisfactory and not just a “post count padding” in your estimation, nevermore…
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, one week, six days, 19 hours, 11 minutes and 10 seconds.
5431 cigarettes not smoked, saving $679.00.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 20 hours, 35 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub]
Hmm, this is a good thing to think about. Me and my fiancé are trying to have a kid, and I know she is against abortion for herself (though pro-choice in most circumstances), but I don’t know if that would change if we knew the child was unlikely to be fully-functional. If it was MY choice, I would abort if there was a strong chance of mental disability or a serious physical problem like CF, but I’m not sure what she would do. I don’t think I am strong enough to raise a retarded or terminally ill child.
About 20 years ago, I saw a British movie called (I think) “A Day in the Life of Joe Egg” about two parents raising their severely mentally retarded daughter. Mipswoman was crying like a baby and I will admit the old mipsman was gulping a few times. At one point the father said to the mother, who was just returning home, that the child had died while she was gone. She was shocked and then he said no, the child was still alive but hadn’t she felt an enormous relief for a moment. I believe abortion is a pretty nasty thing for a mother to do to her child but, when I think about this movie, I don’t know what I would do in similar circumstances. My hat is off to you who have lived this experience.
Satan:
while the “post-padding” thing was mostly just poking fun, I am glad it prompted you to explain your position a bit further. Now I can understand better why you don’t want to think about it, rather than just taking that statement at face value, which is what I had to do earlier.
welp one just deals with it when it happens… You do what you have to do to cope with your kids. When I lost my son, one way I did use to comfort myself was the thought that if he had survived, he would have been seriously braind amaged and I would prefer given a choice, not to deal with that. Now I have two kids who are both challenging and special needs… TBH if a genetic test had been available for autism and if I could have chosen to test, I don’t know what I would have done. My kids are far from intellectually handicapped but there is grief involved in raising kids who are, for want of a better term, not normal. It has led me on paths I don’t think I would have chosen to go… I sometimes get deeply irked with people who say “Oh I don’t know how you do it”. I mean we do it because We Have No Choice and because we love our kids so what else does one do?
All that said if I fell pregnant again I would test with amnio. Previously my risk of miscarriage was higher than my risk of DS or whatever. Now however I would rather miscarry than have another child with a disability.
I read a letter from a mother raising a severely handicapped child a long time ago. She ended it with “He is my son. I love him. I wish he had never been born.” I can’t begin to comprehend the cauldron of emotions that such a situation causes. For those who live this, there is sure to be a reward in heaven or in the next incarnation.
I’m terribly sorry, but this man, IMHO, is an asshole. To do such as that is bad enough, but he was the father of this child. To play some sort of mind game on his wife reveals a level of assholicity beyond the pale.
As far as the OP, well, Satan already said that he doesn’t feel qualified to be the decision maker if he is not capable of being in that situation, and I agree. Ptahlis pointed out that he worries about his progeny being born with DS, as did I. And finally, Primaflora explained that you deal with it, and that is exactly what my wife and I do. Hell, I didn’t want to be married, and I am. I certainly never wanted a child, and my daughter will turn 9 in a couple of weeks. I lived in fear that if I did have a child, that said child would havs DS, and she most assuredly does. Yet I’m still pretty happy with the way that things turned out. I learned to deal with any issues that get tossed my way, and I will continue to do so. It’s really that simple for me. You, mipsman, may take your hat off to me, but I really feel that I’m the wrong person to be the poster child for people who have children with any sort of developmental anomaly. Hell, I’m just a guy. Plus, I don’t believe in heaven, so I’ll take my reward in the here and now.
Personally it depends on several factors such as how far along I was and whether or not it was a planned pregnancy. Really though this is a two parter question. If you were seriously pro life aborting a child no matter what would not be a consideration. I however am pro-choice and I have to say that if I found out that my child was going to be seriously developmentally disabled in the first trimester I would probably abort. This does not really say anything good about who I am, but it is an honest answer. Now I can say that if I found out in the second trimester I probably would not have an abortion. But that goes into my beliefs about when life really starts and that is for another thread.
I dunno, Amthystre, it sounds like you’re honest with yourself. And that’s gotta be half the battle right there. If someone is that apprehensive about having a child with mental retardation, then it’s probably best if they do some soul searching and if the decision is to abort, then do so. Especially if the alternative is that you (that’s the royal ‘you’, not you specifically) wind up resenting said child for the rest of whatever.
GL, it was a movie scene that attempted to show the pain and suffering and a chance of release/liberation/grief. My description did not do it justice. However, in the last scene, the father runs away, so your analysis is correct, actually understated.
I live a spoiled, self-centered life in which I have no responsibilities except for myself. I can’t comprehend what this situation is like. Stories, anecdotes and movies like this one paint the picture in broad brush strokes for me. Given this meager background, if, by chance, it were my life, I do not know if I would be a saint or sinner.
Primaflora, pardon the profundity of my ignorance, but I guess I am not quite clear on what autism is. If it’s not a too sensitive a subject, would you mind explaining it a little? It just seems incongruous picturing a gifted child with a handicap.
There seems to be this prevailing attitude that gifted kids are ‘perfect’ and don’t suffer from other conditions - in fact that’s not true at all. 60% of profoundly gifted kids (IQ of 160 and above) also have learning disabilities such as dyslexia or dysgraphia.
Autism is a disorder where the child doesn’t communicate and can’t ‘read’ other people’s emotions. Most of them lack empathy and something called a theory of mind. I am fairly cynical about theory of mind. It is more commonly associated with intellectual handicaps but there is a significant sub group of highly gifted kids who score on the Autistic spectrum. Autism is varied in its presentations. There are the intellectually handicapped kids who rock and cannot communicate, there are autistic savants and there are children with more even abilities. Savants are children like Rainman who usually have one truly astounding ability while being handicapped in other areas. It is possible for a kid to be a savant and not handicapped though.
Autism is a hugely moveable diagnosis though. If you don’t have a classically autistic kid who has rituals and obsessions and rocks, it can very much depend on the doctor or psychologist as to whether the kid is autistic. Aspergers in particular is a controversial diagnosis. I kinda feel that if your kid is not bog standard normal, has some amazing abilities and apparent deficits, if you shop around long enough, you will get this diagnosis. With one of my kids I have no doubt that at this point in time, he does meet enough of the criteria to be dx’ed on the spectrum. With the other kid, it really depends on the therapist as to whether he scores highly enough.
