If you think the Schiavo case will "backfire" on Republicans, you're a fool

[elucidator]

Puppy.

[eleanorigby]

I cannot figure it out, gobear , either.

And you would think with my intellectual superiority and all–I would understand the connection in a nanosecond…
this story (the OP’s position–anyone still with me?) will be reduced to a black/white issue (no, no, NOT a racial thing!) and it may well shake out as Reps wore the white hats and libs the black ones (can’t seem to get away from race today…). Does anyone smell the genius of Karl Rove at work here?

[ahem–the above allusions to race were sarcasm}

[Starving_Artist]

@This Year's Model

Perhaps it would work better if you type what you mean the first time.

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. Maybe I don’t want to hear what you all have to say after all.

This is a direct quote from my post: “I’ve always thought one of the main tenets of liberalism is that we are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability. Blacks and women are no different than men, and the people of any one particular country are no better in such terms than the people of another country.”

(bolding mine)

Does this not say exactly what I meant the first time?

And please don’t tell me that you are attempting to extrapolate from the comment “we all all human beings and we are all equal in terms…etc.” that I was saying every idividual is as smart or capable and every other one! If so, I would gladly nominate your photograph to illustrate disingenuousness in the dictionary. :rolleyes:

Cmon, now…knock it off. Despite your early tone with me I thought you were a pretty intelligent and decent guy. I’m beginning to question whether I might have been wrong about one or the other.

[quixotic78]

@Shayna

From “A Report to Governor Jeb Bush In the Matter of Theresa Marie Schiavo” by Jay Wolfson, DrPh, JD, Guardian Ad Litem for Theresa Marie Schiavo:

It is quite a fascinating read, as it contains a thorough summary of everything that has taken place in this case through December 2003.

Thanks for this link, Shayna. You’re right – it’s a good summary of this case (up until its publication in late '03) and, despite the fact that it’s written by a lawyer, pretty readable.

Thanks for your link too, Hamlet.

Carry on…

[Merijeek]

@Starving Artist

Cmon, now…knock it off. Despite your early tone with me I thought you were a pretty intelligent and decent guy. I’m beginning to question whether I might have been wrong about one or the other.

Notice the segue into “liberals are mean”.

As soon as she dies we’ll get a drive-by about the mean liberal media and the thread will be done.

How exciting.

-Joe

[Zakalwe]

@Starving Artist

Okay, since this has come up twice in a row, perhaps I’d better clarify it before I go. You and Zakalwe, either by error or intent, appear to be construing my comments to mean that one individual human is no different than another.

Probably because that’s what you said:

“[W]e are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability” is pretty unambigious.

@Starving Artist

one race vs. the other, one sex vs. the other, etc.

What is meant by “etc” in the above quote?

@Starving Artist

Such was the position of the liberal faction in the late sixties, the seventies, etc.

One had to pretend that women were as strong as men, etc., or be shouted down in fits of indignation.

Cite? As far as I know women asked for equal opportunity, not equal results.

@Starving Artist

But then again, perhaps you guys are just too young to appreciate the stances previously championed by your own side and which form the foundation for your beliefs today.

Or perhaps you’re just too fucking old to remember what you had for breakfast this morning, let alone what happened in the sixties and seventies. I would also point out the obvious factor that many of the politician’s involved in this debate have also neglected the “stances previously championed by [their] own side and which form the foundation for [their] beliefs today” or was that somebody else I saw screaming about the sanctity of marriage last year?

@Starving Artist

Either way, it has long been held that there is no substantive difference in intelligence or ability between the races or between the people of different countries.

Nobody has argued that there is. Way to knock down that strawman you sent up for yourself. Feel better now?

[Frank]

@Starving Artist

Does this not say exactly what I meant the first time?

I read your second sentence as a stand alone sentence, not as a modification of your first sentence. I wasn’t the only one.

Cmon, now…knock it off. Despite your early tone with me I thought you were a pretty intelligent and decent guy. I’m beginning to question whether I might have been wrong about one or the other.

So? Am I to feel crushed?

[Fear_Itself]

@Starving Artist

Despite your early tone with me I thought you were a pretty intelligent and decent guy.

Regardless of your callow youth and inexperience.

[gobear]

Ah, I get it!
When SA says,

“I’ve always thought one of the main tenets of liberalism is that we are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability. Blacks and women are no different than men, and the people of any one particular country are no better in such terms than the people of another country.”

He’s harking back to Eleanor Rigby’s comment that she “wishes she lived in a smarter country.”
SA, that’s a rhetorical device called “hyperbole” (hy-PER-bo-lee), which is an exaggerated figure of speech used for effect. She did not literally mean that the people of the US as a whole are racially or intrinsicallly less intelligent than the populations of other countries.

[Frank]

@eleanorigby

And you would think with my intellectual superiority and all–I would understand the connection in a nanosecond…

I thought you’d stay the same even though you’re the poster child for superior liberal elitism. You’ve changed, eleanorigby, you’re changed…

[gobear]

@This Year's Model

I thought you’d stay the same even though you’re the poster child for superior liberal elitism. You’ve changed, eleanorigby, you’re changed…

Flip-flopper! Alert the media!

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Um, can anyone remind me what we were talking about originally, before Starving Artist wandered in?

SA, pal, you really shouldn’t post in threads without reading them first. The whole thing, not just the OP. The longer they are, the likelier you’ll learn something that makes you revise or outright reject what you originally intended to say.

[Frank]

@EddyTeddyFreddy

Um, can anyone remind me what we were talking about originally, before Starving Artist wandered in?

SA, pal, you really shouldn’t post in threads without reading them first. The whole thing, not just the OP. The longer they are, the likelier you’ll learn something that makes you revise or outright reject what you originally intended to say.

Whether or not this political ploy will backfire on the Republicans. If you’d read the entire thread, you’d know that.

Waah! Now ETF won’t wanna talk to me, either! sob

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

@This Year's Model

Whether or not this political ploy will backfire on the Republicans. If you’d read the entire thread, you’d know that.

Damn, getting old sucks. And here I was all set to comment that
Umm…

Well, I did mean to say that…

:smack: Now where did I put those glasses?

:: wanders off ::

[Miller]

@Starving Artist

I have several comments to make in regard to much that has gone on in this thread. First and foremost would be that the Dope’s motto is “Fighting Ignorance,” not assailing it! We are all ignorant of far more than we know. Does this render us worthless as human beings, or does it just mean there is far more knowledge to be had than can be absorbed?

Well, it would probably help if your first post in this thread hadn’t been an insult. Generally speaking, I think most Dopers are going to be more forgiving of ignorance if it isn’t prefaced with character assassination. Especailly one that is wildly off-base as “liberals don’t have a sense of humor.” Which, incidentally, was what I was referring to when I asked if you knew you were full of it. But that’s getting into hijack territory.

Secondly, Dopers in the main are pretty much an elite (and sometimes elitist) bunch.

We’re only elitist because we’re so much better than everyone else.

They tend to be very involved both emotionally and intellectually in the issues of the day, and they seem to have more time available to spend researching the issues that resonate with them.

I think it would be more correct to say that individual dopers are emotionally and intellectually involved in certain issues that are important to them, and further, that this is not a trait unique to Dopers, but simply a part of being human.

To a certain degree they live in an ivory tower that most people in America – or the world, for that matter – simply don’t have time for. Most people are involved with jobs and bosses and finances and children and errands, etc., and simply don’t have the time nor inclination to pursue the issues that come up here as thoroughly as do many Dopers.

I’m not sure where you get the impression that Dopers as a group don’t have jobs, bosses, finances, or families. Everyone deals with these stresses, and must make allowances for how much of their free time they dedicate to issues that are important to them. In this thread, we get a lot of people who are passionately interested in the Schiavo case. In another thread, an entirely different set of Dopers might be passionately interested in Social Security reform, and there will be little to no overlap between the two groups. The people who have decided to invest themselves in Terri Schiavo have likely done so at the expense of investing themselves in SS reform, and vice versa. Or they do both of those, but stay out of the Iraqi WMD threads, or some other permutation. Dopers as a group tend to be knowledgable on a bewildering array of topics. Dopers as individuals tend to speak on the small handful of topics about which they are knowledgable, and keep mum when the topic is something with which they aren’t intimatly familiar.

Many get their impressions of an issue based on what they read or see on television, and if no one refutes the things that are said, there is absolutely nothing to trigger the idea that it should be looked into further. Let’s take the issue of whether or not Terri’s husband is the only one who said she didn’t want to be kept alive artificially. This is only one of a great many assertions or statements made in the course of a thirty minute or one hour television program. Is one to sit there with a stenographer, take down every word that is spoken, and then set about to research its veracity?

Of course not. Unless somebody calls bullshit on it (and I’ve seen that assertion made all over the media, not just Fox) it simply doesn’t occur to most of us to look into the statement further. It would be totally unworkable to try to verify every statement made on these shows.

This does not mean that the viewer does not have a right to an opinion, and it doesn’t mean they are to become a source of rage and/or assailed when some aspect of their opinion turns out to be in error.

In regard to my own case, my lack of knowledge regarding Shiavo was the result of time allocation regarding news stories and other items of interest. When I turn on the television, read a magazine or go to an online news site, I’m confronted with a virtually unlimited number of things to read or listen to. Since I can’t get to everything I want to find out about, I weed out the things that I either have no interest in or feel would be too complex to get into at the time. The latter is the case regarding Terri Shiavo. There seemed to be too many conflicting aspects to it, and whatever the result it was bound to be an unhappy ending, so I pretty much avoided it given that there was nothing I could do about it anyway. Still, I was left with the impression that her husband was the only one saying she would have wanted to die, and since I’d heard nothing to the contrary, it never occurred to me that it should be looked into further.

And there’s nothing wrong with that, really. If that’s all the time you’d cared to invest in this issue, no one is going to object. Where you run into trouble is when you have a very limited understanding of a subject (and if all you know about something is what you’ve seen on TV, then by definition you have a limited understanding of the issue) and think that that equals an informed opinion. To use my earlier example, I know about as much about SS reform as you did about Terry and Michael Schiavo. The difference is, I don’t post to SS reform threads. I read 'em (well, some of them) becuase I feel I should know more about the issue, but I don’t post to them, because I’m accutely aware that I don’t have enough knowledge to add anything substantive to the debate.

Thirdly, I see an awful lot of judgementalism going on in this thread. “I know such and so, you fucking tool, and therefore you should know it as well or you better not open your yap!” Well, there’s quite a problem with that if you don’t happen to be a mind-reader. And of course, this type of attitude really boils down to a demand for self-imposed censorship. People are entitled to their opinions and they are entitled to speak those opinions. If it turns out they are in the wrong, this should be brought to light, but not with the snide, self-satisfied and judgemental type of attitude so prevalent throughout this thread.

And if those opinions are stupid or ill-informed, they are entitled to be called on it. This is the Pit, after all, and you did jump into things with both guns blazing. If I weren’t familiar with your posting style, I’d have assumed that you showed up here looking for a fight, and I’d likely have obliged.

I’ve always thought one of the main tenets of liberalism is that we are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability.

Where on Earth did you ever get that idea?

Blacks and women are no different than men, and the people of any one particular country are no better in such terms than the people of another country.

That’s not liberalism, that’s just science. Race, gender, and nationality are not reliable indicators for intelligence or ability. Heck, even Dubya’s figured that one out. For everything else I hate about that chimp, I have to credit him for having a truly color-blind administration.

So in short, I’d say I would like to see a hell of a lot more of a live-and-let live attitude prevail around here, one where people could be made aware of it in those cases where they are in error on this subject or that, without it being made into an elitist mob-mentality attack on the person in error wherein the attempt is made to tear them apart.

If this were a jungle and not cyberspace, I’d be in tiny little pieces by now. And that’s not right, especially on a board where everyone aspires to a higher standard than the norm.

I’d like to see more respect for informed, but differing, opinions on the boards in general. However, I have a deep-seated hatred for uninformed opinions, wether I agree with them or not. I’d rather not see them treated lightly on the boards. Not in the Pit, anyway. I’d like to think that after being torn to little pieces a time or two for offering an opinion on a subject of which one does not have more than the most superficial understanding, said person would learn to educate themselves before opening their mouths.

Then again, I’d also like to have a pony, and that ain’t going to happen any time soon, either.

[eleanorigby]

@This Year's Model

I thought you’d stay the same even though you’re the poster child for superior liberal elitism. You’ve changed, eleanorigby, you’re changed…

Well, YOU try being the Poster Child for all that is wrong with America!*

It ain’t easy, and this heavy load of spin and half truths is killing me!**
gobear -I tried to stand firm, but the media pressure was just too much. Can you ever forgive me?

*more hyperbole–some girls just don’t learn easy
** this is not true for all Poster Children. YMMV.

[Homebrew]

@eleanorigby

some girls just don’t learn easy

Yes, being easy does come more naturally for some …

[jayjay]

@Homebrew

Yes, being easy does come more naturally for some …

Hey, now! I’m just generous…

[rjung]

@Miller

@Starving Artist

I’ve always thought one of the main tenets of liberalism is that we are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability.

Where on Earth did you ever get that idea?

Hey, the guy also thinks there’s a vast left-wing media conspiracy who fires editors of nudie mags when they’re “outed” as Republicans, despite a total lack of evidence to support that view.

You really don’t want to know where Starving Artist gets his “ideas”…

[Starving_Artist]

@Miller

If I weren’t familiar with your posting style, I’d have assumed that you showed up here looking for a fight, and I’d likely have obliged.

You know, this is a very telling remark. I’ve been puzzled all along as to why these two relatively innocuous posts of mine have generated such a firestorm around here. I’m usually a nighttime person, and youself, gobear and Hentor excepted, I’m probably pretty much unknown around here. (Remember my comment about the daytimers being a testy bunch?) So I guess it may have indeed looked like I just showed up looking for a fight.

In truth, I meant those posts as quasi-goodnatured and humorous gigs at the noble opposition…pretty much like friend rjung is prone to do, but with nowhere near the ubiquitousness. Your seemed to get it, and your post about “murdering fetuses” was more in line with the spirit of my posts.

Then of course, given my reluctance to shy away from a fight for fear of appearing defeated, the thread then devolved into what we have here.

None of this, of course, changes anything. But it does at least explain it.

Now, with regard to the responses to my highly reasoned and well thought out book-length post above, it appears the general consensus on the part of my adversaries here is that I was indeed correct in my assessment of Doper behavior and attitude – but so what?

That is all I wanted to know.

And hi, ETF. It’s good to hear from you again.