No.
I decide if the candidate offered measures up to my standards.
You raise a good point here. One which screws progressives royally, so gives me glee in my dark hour.
It’s true, we have a right-wing party and a center-right party. Progressives might as well be libertarians in terms of their influence.
And yet we have Obamacare, and same sex marriage. How’s that work?
But you do not get do define Democrat, do you?
What, liberals like Obamacare now? Seems they can’t wait to dismantle it these days. As for social change, that happens independent of politics. Brave progressive leaders like Barack OBama and Hillary Clinton only followed public opinion.
Incrementalism can be an effective strategy. Advancing the ball three yards is better than losing three. But sometimes when trying to advance the ball you make a mistake. ACA may be a mistake that prevents single payer from ever happening.
Um, say what now?
Okay, this is one of those days for you again, I see.
Tell us the Republican alternative plan story again, Daddy. I love that one.
What’s the liberal alternative? Oh yeah, get rid of all of it(Medicare too) and replace it with something totally different. Absolutely brilliant.
To repeat: Um, say what now?
It’s interesting that you would blame them, but not the millions who turned out to vote for Trump, or the millions more (of whatever political stripe) who don’t bother turning out at all.
It seems that, for some people in American politics, the first blame is always to be placed on the people who vote for candidates who aren’t from one of the two major parties. Such an attitude has always struck me as quite puzzling. “Let’s blame the engaged and thoughtful voters who vote their political beliefs, rather than the apathetic millions and the reactionaries who directly oppose us.” Such people sometimes claim that they would like to change the two-party domination of America’s political system, but their words and actions suggest that they’re interested in no such thing.
Oh, there’s plenty of blame to go around. I lost any confidence in Republicans decades ago. They’re generally going to vote for Trump no matter what, whether they’re Kool-Aid drinkers, putting party over country, or mistakenly thinking that any change is better than the current system.
I have nothing but contempt for people who are able to vote but simply refuse to. They are abdicating their civic responsibility because they don’t like one particular vote. I can at least respect those who write in Mickey Mouse for President but vote on other offices and initiatives. They are voting their beliefs and upholding their responsibility. (Doesn’t mean I won’t blame them, in the case I mentioned, though.)
Ultimately, I don’t understand how anyone can justify voting for a candidate who is by far (and clearly) the most unqualified and dangerous Presidential candidate in modern history, and arguably in all of American history. People can console themselves by fantasizing that the office will magically change him into Abe Lincoln, but it ain’t so. That is the final and most important thing. Everyone makes dire predictions for when their own non-preferred candidate wins, but this is the one time that it’s going to be correct. There is no realistic scenario in which Trump will be a good President. He would damage our foreign relationships, our economy, and our society.
(Btw, I am neither D nor R. I’m an independent. I make decisions on individual issues and candidates regardless of party platforms. I have no vested interest in any particular candidate, other than that I have decided to vote for Hillary and will do everything I can to prevent the loudmouthed orange-haired bigot from gaining office. Btw, those two decisions have nothing to do with each other. If I were going to support anyone other than Hillary, I would still do everything in my power to make sure Trump does not win.)
How can you blame Republicans for acting that way when so many Democrats preach the same message? “Support the party no matter what because at least then we get the right judges confirmed and the right majority leaders and a reliable vote for this or that and the alternative is so much worse, yada yada”
Republicans who support Trump are doing EXACTLY what Clinton supporters are demanding Bernie Bros do.
Great point.
As far as President is concerned, bottom line: Because Trump. The alternative is so much worse. Even you agree with that.
The rest is attempting to get agendas through Congress, which is nothing new, Dem or Pub. Ultimately, the GOP has become so regressive and deliberately obstructionist that it must either change or be supplanted.
Okay, but let’s say the GOP hadn’t picked Trump, but had picked KAsich instead. The polls show that Kasich probably would have won easily, so we can assume that at least as of April that a lot of potential Clinton supporters were more inclined to support Kasich. Given Kasich’s resume and record, is there any substantive argument that someone should favor Clinton that doesn’t simply revolve around ideology? Clinton’s better because she’s liberal?
Trump is an extreme case so I can kinda relate to the idea that Clinton should be supported by Democrats, but this argument is much older than 2016. When the PUMAs were threatening to not vote for Obama the argument was that this would mean a McCAin election. Which was bad why? Oh, justices, conservative policies, and so on. But it’s not all about ideology and party goals to every voter, nor should it be.
Kasich is someone I could support. He’s at least reasonable. But I’m not at all confident in what would happen with a triple crown of Republican control (Presidency, Senate, and House).
While it wouldn’t be quite as bad as Trump in the Presidency, it could be pretty close. Instead of dismantling the country, we could be set back by 30 to 60 years. Any progress made by the Obama administration would almost definitely be revoked. I don’t see that as a good thing.
That’s a reasonable concern, but it’s not the only concern voters have. Judgment, accountability, ethics, leadership qualities, those matter too.
The good news for Clinton is that she excels in a lot of areas: strong leader, good judgment when she isn’t letting politics decide for her. Competent. Her only real issues are lack of principles and poor ethics. But those are two really big problems, especially if you’re attracted to Bernie because you want real change. Clinton just does not represent change. At all.
No, it’s the fault of anybody who votes for Trump.
And the electors who don’t have the common sense and courage to vote for her in January, “faithlessness” be damned.
If the electors can vote for anyone, why would they vote for Clinton? Vote for Biden. And it is Democrats’ fault if we get Trump. This election should have been a slam dunk. It should not be possible for Trump to win. yet win he might.
An important fact to remember amidst all the hand wringing about the “Bernie or Bust” folks is that in a TYPICAL election cycle, about 10% of each party’s registered voters vote against “their own” Presidential candidate. (my cite is a 538 article from a few weeks ago that I can’t find to link to right now).
So, if one-quarter of Bernie’s voters vote for Trump or Stein or whoever, that’s not a big deal. It’s not a sign that Bernie supporters are uniquely naive or misguided. It’s certainly not a reason to blame Sanders should Clinton lose. It’s just business as usual. In both of Obama’s races, he got fewer Republican votes than his opponent got Democratic votes, and it worked out OK for him.
:dubious:
While I certainly agree that Democrats were foolish to choose Clinton, I would think the primary blame for a hypothetical Trump Presidency would be with the party that actually NOMINATED the idiot.