You’re missing years of backstory with respect to these candidates. Absent that backstory,understanding politics would be like trying to make sense of your first football (NFL) game without benefit of a tutor.
In America, we value the right to stand up on a soapbox and discuss, however loudly, our political expectations. We cherish our right to publicly call a political figure an inept moron if the need be. Thereafter, every 4 years or so, we silently march off to the polls and vote for the next leader and the leadership of this country is peacefully transferred to the winner. We like it this way, and the “loud partisans on each of the sides are having very skewed memories” are part of the game. But, the funny thing is how well it really works. I don’t think there’s a better way anywhere else.
I was only observing.
I noticed many posts by posters arguing they liked Hillary for specific reasons, like the adminstrative and political skills in the dealing with the congress and the pragmatism. These I noticed in many threads. These seemed reasoned.
Of course in a competition this will generally also come with comparisons to the opponent - it is bizarre to expect otherwise.
But i have also noticed the loud declarations from each side that the other side is meaner to them… As an outside observer I think it is their memory selection bias since it does not appear to me to be the case…
(eta, i do say I follow this election as a muslim very concerned you all will elect trump)
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of bluster going on right now. People are pissed in the moment about this primary or that, but once things get rolling with Trump v Clinton, clearer minds should prevail.
Yes: it could, for some, be about a belief that both Sanders and Trump would (as President) refrain from placing any sort of restrictions on the sale of guns.
For others, though, the ‘anyone but Hillary’ impulse might well be coming from the Phenomenon That Must Not Be Discussed: a determination that no one who fails to have a Y chromosome will become the American President. It’s unthinkable! (For some; but of course it must not be discussed.)
There appears to be a basic philosophy behind this question that you may not realize is not universal. You may be assuming that everyone chooses how to vote for President on the criteria: who is the Bright Shining Star, to be venerated and praised? Who is the Inspiring One, worthy of reverence and honor? Who is the Pure and Noble Idol? Who has a thread on the SDMB filled with tributes and accolades?
Many of us don’t see voting for a President in such terms. Many of us realize that candidates should be compared and contrasted, and that though we can’t expect to get everything we want in one candidate, we can, through putting in the work of paying attention to the process, make the best possible choice–for our particular set of values and goals–from the alternatives at hand. That’s the responsible course of action.
And in practice, a lot of times who’s best for the country works out to who’s not worst.
It amazes me that anyone outside of his family thinks Trump would be better for anyone. Let’s vote for the idiot just because he’s an outsider over the one who has experience and actually talks about, you know, issues, and provides detailed answers to policy questions. I get that some people just don’t have the time to educate themselves politically, but come on…this joker is clearly unqualified to be within a mile of the White House. Ever. Not even as a guest in the Lincoln Bedroom.
As an observer, I find this abstract intellectualizing very strange… If I vote Socialist to bloc the Front National, I am voting for something, I am voting for the message that the FN shall not be acceptable on the* liberale* side of the politics and not as an expression of support for the statist, socialist policy of a Hollande. This is a positive statement.
normally overseas we should not care about your votes, but we are watching in great horror Trump and a very dangerous, neo fascist rhetoric become normalized. This is not a normal thing, it is not merely the mistake you made with the Bush the younger, it is a normalization of an approach and a rhetoric that on this side of the Atlantic is very recognizable and echoes darkly of the first half of the 20th century.
I’ve heard that he’s one of the sorest losers there is.
Wow. “Quick, get me a list of Bush appointees; points if the have a previous association with Thomas or Rehnquist.”
Oh, I think he’s said he wants to make America strong again, or something, something, but seriously, what candidate is going to say they want to make America weak, or somehow ungreat?
I think the flood of Trump votes in the primary has overlooked the cross-over vote. I think a lot of Democrats voted for him in the primary, assuming that Clinton had the primary sewn up, and Trump was the person to beat in the general election. Unfortunately, it backfired by making it look like Trump is more popular than he is, and encouraging his genuine supporters. Of course, if it scares Sanders voters into voting for Clinton, I suppose that’s all right.
Yes, I voted for Trump in the primary, never dreaming he’d get to be as popular as he is. I deeply regret it, and wish I’d voted for Kasich. I have every intention of voting for Clinton in the general election, and always have. I crossed over in the primary to vote against a really scary guy named Todd Young who is running for senator, and as long as I was doing that, went ahead and cast the presidential vote too. If it hadn’t been for Todd Young, I’d have voted for Clinton in the primary.
My husband voted for Sanders, but he has every intention of voting for Clinton in the general election as well. He would never not vote for the Democrat in the general election, although in this case, he has said he would vote for Nixon before he’d vote for Trump. He voted for Nader when Nader ran in the primary, but then was angry with him for running as an independent, and believes he cost the Democrats the election that year. He’s already said he won’t vote for Sanders as an independent. I said “You know voting for him in the primary encourages him to think about running as an independent.” He says that his goal was to get Clinton to revise her platform to include more Sanders-like ideas to try to capture Sanders voters, which she seems to have done, so I guess he achieved what he wanted.
It’s probably not an either or proposition - you could probably blame both.
I’ve already expressed my gripes about Bernie, but having said all of that, Clinton would not be blameless. I’d blame the Hillary Clinton campaign for underestimating the intensity of Bernie Sanders’ supporters adoration for Sanders’ message and also underestimating the suspicions about her candidacy. Whatever you may think of Sanders, the concerns are real and palpable and have to be addressed in a meaningful way. I am more than a little concerned that the Clinton campaign advisers seem to be a little too quick to talk past Sanders and his campaign. I’d be spending more money in California, for instance. Not doing so seems a little presumptuous and even, dare I say, arrogant.
@ Sanders’ supporters — If Hillary becomes untenable (e.g. due to an indictment) would you support a Biden-Warren ticket? Cenk Uygur (the Young Turks Youtuber) has a theory that the Democratic establishment has a backup plan to spring this ticket.
Biden-Warren would be my dream ticket but Cenk Uygur makes the (probably correct) claim that if Sanders were passed over for a man who didn’t even run in the primaries, outrage would be huuuge. :o
I am pretty sure Hillary will pick Sanders as her VP (although she will NOT like it), Sanders will grudgingly accept, and the 2 will work together just fine.
None of the 17 GOPers this year would have received my vote over Hillary, but I have voted for Republicans in the past. Bob Dole, most recently. Other than Cruz, none of this year’s 17 were as loathsome as Trump. Bernie supporters need to realize that.
Short term if Trump wins he gets 2 years with a Republican house to do their thing. With a little luck they will do so badly that America actually votes in the mid-terms and elects some actual humans to congress.
I seriously do not think that Trump is capable of doing the harm people seem to be worried about.
Clinton on the other hand is literally just one more politician that is part of the Order of Things here in America. If elected it will be the establishment of the second dynasty in this supposedly democratic nation.
Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong term I think Clinton does far more harm that Trump could ever dream of. I think electing yet another flip flopping/pandering/corporate goat felcher to the office of the president at the only time in living memory people are seriously pissed off at the status quo sets us back decades in getting our shitty, corrupt, backwards, ignorant, so called leadership to either lead or get out.
Yes. And that’s what responsible voters do: make a positive statement of both what they do want and what they don’t want.
The excuses people make for declining to vote or for voting in such a way that the worst possible candidate wins (e.g. voting for a 3rd-party candidate in close races), probably seem to make sense to those offering the excuses: ‘I want to vote for something;’ ‘I have to vote my conscience;’ ‘I want to vote for someone I believe in;’ I will vote only if a candidate inspires me;’ ‘it’s up to the candidate to motivate me to vote,’ etc.
In reality these are not responsible positions to take. The job of governing is a job. No one who applies for the job will be perfect in the eyes of any one particular voter; but one of those applying will be better than others applying, and the responsible voter chooses on that basis. Responsible voters don’t passively sit back and demand to be inspired.
Again: yes. There are Sanders supporters who are saying, basically, that four years of Trump will be No Big Deal and that progressive causes would be better served by four years of Trump. This is a monumentally naïve position.
It rests on the fallacious belief that Nothing Ever Really Changes–that life under a Trump Presidency wouldn’t be fundamentally different in any important way from life as it is now.
But things do change. Ask anyone in 1930s Germany if Nothing Really Changed after Hitler became Chancellor. (And, sadly, the analogy is probably not overblown. Even if it were, the case remains that “nothing ever really changes” was proven to be a fallacious philosophy quite decisively, by the events of 1933.)
(I know that you already know everything I’ve said in this post–I’m saying it to the entire readership of the thread, of course.)
but Cenk Uygur makes the (probably correct) claim that if Sanders were passed over for a man who didn’t even run in the primaries, outrage would be huuuge. :o