No dice.1) We, as a group, are not close enough to the scene of the crime, either in space or time, to affect he woman’s situation (i.e. provide medical help or call 911, as we would be in your example). 2) Our comments, by and large, have focused on practical precautions that one could take if the same event occurred in the future.
I’d like to say something.
Folks like me, Unclebeer, etc. are not claiming she would have successfully defended herself with a handgun. What we’re saying is that we’re sick and tired of people who refuse to lift a finger when it comes to self-protection. You are responsible for your protection. As a responsible and moral citizen, would it not behoove you to do something to help tilt the odds in your favor should you become a victim of violence? We’re not saying everyone needs to strap on a .44 Magnum and take 20 handgun courses at Thunder Ranch. All we’re asking is for people to put forth some effort to protect themselves.
If you’re a healthy individual and refuse to do take any measures in the name of self-protection, then I will have little sympathy for you if you become of victim of violence.
Clint Smith says, “If you look like food, you’ll be eaten.”
(Unclviny rises to his feet clapping wildly)
You have expressed better than I could, my feelings on the subject.
Thank you
Unclviny
Crafter Man, if this woman were walking in a dark alley in a crime-ridden neighborhood at 4 a.m., then I’d agree with you to some degree. However, this woman was getting out of her car at her place of residence in a (previously) safe place. Clearly she didn’t expect to have some homocidal maniac attack her. Why would she?
If you are arguing that she should have had a gun drawn because she was getting out of her car after dark, then I think that is flat out ridiculous, not to mention needlessly, stupidly dangerous. Besides, she could have been packing a grenade launcher and it wouldn’t have done her any good against an ambush. Nor would a black belt in taekwondo.
As a woman I’m well aware that at any given time 25% of the people I encounter are adolescent or grown men physically capable of kicking my ass. Luckily, 99.9% of men are decent. And there is no way I can anticipate when or where I might encounter that .1% who aren’t. I do what I can to protect myself from opportunistic criminals by not walking alone after dark in dangerous areas, keeping my doors locked, etc. But there’s woefully little I can do to protect myself from a person who is motivated enough and patient enough to wait for a time when I’m alone and unarmed. If someone is hell bent on hurting me, they will find a way. See the stats on the number of women killed by their ex-lovers while having a restraining order against them if you need proof.
PunditLisa:
Your defeatist attitude leaves something to be desired.
Do you lock your car doors when you’re at the mall? Why? I mean, if someone wants to break into your car, they’ll do it anyway, right?
Do you keep your home’s front door locked when you’re not home? Why? I mean, if someone wants to break into your home, they’ll do it anyway, right?
To repeat my previous post, we are not claiming she would have avoided injury if she were trained & armed. But it would have certainly been a lot better than nothing. At least if you’re armed you have a chance to fight back. Do you not agree?
Crafter, you think everyone should walk around with a Glock and you call ME defeatist? Au contraire, I am an eternal optimist because I don’t carry a loaded gun with me at all times. Yes, I lock my car doors when I’m at the mall, however I’ve been known to unload my purchases into the van with my back turned and (gasp!) using both hands. And despite the 1 in a million chance of being randomly attacked by some homocidal rapist, my glove box holds nothing more lethal than a crusty box of tampons. What can I say? I live on the edge.
But let me tell ya, buster, were I to be attacked by some asshole who took advantage of the fact that we inhabit the same planet and one of us is mentally ill and violent, even if I had mistakenly left my car doors unlocked, I still resist any of your lame attempts to hoist the blame for such an attack on ME.
The woman in the OP was beaten nearly to death by some asshole for doing nothing more brazen than walking from her car to her house. There is nothing else you need to know. The proper response is, “What a tragedy.”
The fact that you say such calloused things such as you don’t feel sorry for someone who does nothing to protect herself, is appalling. If you seriously place one angstrom of guilt upon this woman for doing nothing but minding her own damn business, then you are in serious need of performing a [Ctrl] [Alt] [Del] on your heart.
You are an idealist aren’t you?, I appreciate your attitude but reality is another thing entirely. Remember when the robbers used to just take the stuff from the corner store?, well those days are over and now they kill the clerk on the way out the door I (and apparently others) feel that the guy working at the store bears some kind of responsability for protecting himself. I guess I respect your right to walk around this world with a “please don’t hurt me” sign on, but I choose to protect myself in (what I feel) is the best, most effective method available.
Good luck
Unclviny
is this what america is like now?
Just curious, PunditLisa: Do you wear a seatbelt when you drive? If yes, why? (Forget about guns for now. Let’s just talk about seatbelts.)
Sadly yes,
The accounts of people getting carjacked and killed or robbed and killed are common nowadays (even in the smaller cities) and personal protection has become a major issue.
As for me I don’t want to die because you want to steal a car (or a carton of smokes) and the “you or me” scenario seems to be a regular occurance so I choose to protect myself.
Unclviny
hmmm.
I guess I’m ‘pro’ gun since I own a few. But the America I know is not a place where you are in constant danger of getting attacked.
I don’t carry. And in the very pro-gun area of Colorado, I don’t know anyone that does.
This woman may or may not have been able to protect herself with a gun or pepper spray or whatever. But it sure as shit is not her responsibility to carry a gun to protect herself from a deliberate act of violence.
You wear seatbelts to protect your self from accidents, not deliberate acts. Seatbelts are easy to use, can’t be used against you, require no training…
I usually agree with the pro-gun side, but in this case, the seatbelt argument is a strawman.
Shijinn,
To answer your question: no. Unless you live in the inner city, where the value of life is a pair of trendy shoes, your chance of being randomly attacked, or car-jacked, is still thankfully very slim.
Of course I do. For several reasons. First and foremost, seatbelts are proven to significantly increase my odds of surviving a crash.
Facts: In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002.
Your chances of being killed in a serious accident while using a safety restraint: 27%. Your chances of being killed while NOT using a safety restraint: 55.5%. (source: car-accidents.com)
The second reason is that I’m not introducing one risk in order to minimize another risk. Having a seatbelt installed in my car poses no danger by its mere existence. My child will not accidentally kill someone by touching the seatbelt. A person breaking into my car cannot steal my seatbelt and use it against me or someone else. If I get really, really mad at my husband, I cannot, in a momentary fit of raging violence, go get the seatbelt and restrain him to death.
Seatbelts have no real downside.
Which leads me to ask the obvious question: what exactly is your point?
Adding to the seatbelt issue: It’s the LAW to buckle up. I have yet to see any law that requires people to carry a gun around but there are laws requiring people to use their seatbelt while driving. I can get a ticket for not using my seatbelt but there’s no legal consequence for not carrying a gun.
And then there’s those pesky odds of seatbelt use that PunditLisa states. What are the odds for gun protection? Are they similar to the seatbelt stats? Has carrying a gun proven to reduce your odds of injury/death like a seatbelt has?
I think we are talking about a statistics and a quality of life thing. If you live in so much fear of being attacked that you carry a gun (because, in your opinion, it is the best option for self-defence) then what is your quality of life? Is it an irrational fear? What are the odds of being attacked? Does it reduce your fear?
Some posters have noted the increased violence in the US. I have previously pointed out that many South Africans have left their country because of the level of violence (and they are lucky enough to possess the means to do this).
Although arming yourself and getting the necessary training may increase your ability to protect yourself, it potentially adds to the violence - is the US heading the same way as South Africa?
I don’t really have a dog in this fight because I believe the 2nd amendment reads plainly that private ownership of firearms is permitted regardless of personal feelings.
But this:
Is just fucking stupid.
Anyone who thinks they can 'protect their liberties or ‘fight tyranny’ by owning an assault rifle is nothing more than a ideology-spouting blind fool.
You know what happens when you decide to ‘protect your liberty’ with that rifle? Some bored group of policemen or a platoon of national guardsmen will get orders to kill you. And they’ll do it. And you will have NO effect on ‘tyranny’ or ‘liberty’ at all. The only effect you’ll have is to ensure that YOU will not be living under tyranny because you’ll be dead.
Really, that always cheeses me off. The people (and I have several friends who believe this)(including one fairly good pal who’s damn-all blind (legally and actually…his sight is something like 15% of a normal humans) who stocked up on assault rifles and ammunition (20000 rounds!) before Y2K ‘just in case’.)…
Where was I? Oh yes…the people who believe their little stockpiles of assault rifles and ammo will ‘turn the tide’ or ‘protect liberty’ have a romantic view of their place in the world. If all those people today decided that Ashcroft was establishing a ‘tyranny’ in the United States and had to be overthrown it would take less than a week to bottle them up.
You have a rifle. Not an organized military force. It’s not enough firepower to do more than make some poor cops widow collect a pension.
Oh, and on a side-rant. I’ve been thinking lately that concealed-carry, though constitutional is for pussies. Sure, might help you in self-defense. But if you want to promote peace you’d be for public carry.
I don’t think anyone is saying it is not legal to own firearms in the US. You can still think something is a bad idea, even though it is legal.
Aren’t you comparing apples and oranges? If a person is in fear of being attacked, they have that fear whether or not they every carried or owned a gun in their lives. The difference is - what do you do to respond to that fear? One response is to take responsibility for your own protection and to enable yourself to protect yourself. People can debate whether or not that is a good response.
For me, I carried a weapon in my car for some time, but stopped recently. I never thought about it much (unless the subject came up) but I knew it was there if something bad ever happened again. When I was attacked there was a long build-up where at any time during an hour or more if I had had a weapon I could have avoided being a victim. People in the situation such as the OP reports on however would likely NOT benefit from carrying a weapon. You can’t deal with a surprise attack, unless you always have the weapon out and ready. No one lives like that in ral life, so obviously firearms ownership and training is far from a panacea.
Some posters have anecdotally noted this. However, IIRC multiple times in GD and elsewhere I believe the facts have shown a steady but slow decrease as a long-term trend, in violent crime rates across the country, with no real clear connection other than to general employment and other economic figures. I live in a city of 12 with almost no gun laws, and with a very high level of firearms ownership. In 2002 it had a murder rate of 1.3/100,000 population, and a population of 149,000. I’ll save you the maths and say that’s about 2 murders a year - from ALL weapons and causes - in a city where it is perfectly legal for any adult over 18 who meets Federal requirements to have all the handguns, AR-15s, shotguns, or whatever they want.
I can’t find a murder rate for NZ in the same terms, but according to this cite:
“Between 1994 and 2000, the number of recorded murders ranged from 40 to 66 per year,”
and given a population of 3,951,307 (2003), this equates to between 1.01 to 1.67 per 100,000, depending on whether you assume high or low - nicely bracketing my city.
Makes you think.
And, um, who’s side would have you been on during the Revolutionary War? :dubious:
In all seriousness, you’re 100% correct. Anyone who goes off on their own to “defend their liberties” with a rifle will certainly end up dead. It’s a stupid thing to do, IMO. It is entirely possible the smart fighter will band together with other smart fighters and engage in guerrilla warfare…[sup]a[/sup]
[sup]a[/sup] [sub]Disclaimer: For informational purposes only. Even though we celebrate the fact the militiamen of 1776 engaged in guerrilla warfare, I am not certainly not advocating anyone else do the same.[/sub]
Good point - But maybe we are not talking about rational fear, I don’t live in fear of being shot or attacked. I’m assuming you do? Why else carry the gun?
The vast majority of murders in NZ are domestic.
And the revolution succeeded not because of guerilla tactics but because there was an organization, more political than military, that kept things moving. Partisan bands in the hills are good for little except stirring things up.
And that was against an absentee government using mercenaries. Against the US Army…again I give you a week. Maybe less.
Face it…the power you have to prevent tyranny is the vote. Your gun isn’t going to do one damn bit of good.