DId I miss some drudge report on the Evils of the US? Or is this more hyperbole and left wing blame game?
(remember, when you point your finger at someone you have three more pointing back atcha. 
lmao bahahaa i crack myself up :rolleyes: )
I find it ironic that many people I talk to today about the situation with Iraq and OBL find the two indistinguishable from one another. These are otherwise hard working, intelligent people. Most are very strong Bush supporters also. When I try to discuss the vast differences in the two, they seem oblivious.
Talk about ignorance. It seems that we have a leader who is very happy to let these people believe that these two separate issues are somehow very connected, and encourages ignorance in his followers.
We have many Americans here who are ready to "send in the troops" on just the say so of our leader. It is not the differences in the way our different countries think, it is the similarities that send chills down my spine.In this day and age, it is possible to examine the workings of other societies without actually traveling the world.
Regular scanning of foreign news sources will both baffle you and educate you in the vagaries of the mysterious east:
http://www.tehrantimes.com/
http://www.allahuakhbar.com/
and of course:
http://www.thepaperboy.com/
Well you missed a history lesson or two for sure. But then given the rosy glasses we like to put on when we look at our own history - it might not have mattered.
Don’t be ashamed, every country does it. Just begin to realize that your sources are more than a little biased. Don’t think of the people that have to rely on other sources as ignorant, just similarly biased.
Excelent links squink. I try to regular most international websites I can find. It’s hard to find em in english. Only had one of those, thanks.
So enlighten me. Got a cite where we installed Saddam and armed him so that the could kill fundies in the 80’s?
My pleasure.
Newsweek did a cover story on the US role in placing Saddam in power months ago. A quick google turns these up as well:
http://www.houston.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/6140.php
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/Diaferia112802/diaferia112802.html
As for the 80’s:
http://www.namebase.org/ppost12.html
For a general survey of US nastiness that never makes headlines give this a look:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/KillingHope_page.html
Almost as ignorant as yourself.
To cainxinth:
Some basic Iraqi history:
When Kassem was overthrown Abdul Salam Arif became president of Iraq with a pro-western government. He died in a plane crash and was replaced by his brother Abdul Rahman Arif who was then overthrown in 1968 and Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr was installed in power and Saddam Hussein succeeded him in 1979.
I will admit the US helped Arif and the Baath party into power but we did not put Saddam Hussein in power, the anti-western side of the Baath party won out against the pro-western side.
But I’m sure that is just splitting hairs to you.
Good God, that OP is surely satirical?
Talk about conflating the issues! When has Bush ever supported open war in Israel? Bush has condemned Israeli military action as heavy-handed, stated that the settlements should be stopped, said Israeli’s should pull out of Arab territory, and commited to a plan that would create a Palestinian state by 2005.
The US has hosted endless peace talks already. Saying “All America has to do to stop Islamic hatred is create peace in the Middle East” is absurd - it’s obviously not in America’s power to do so.
Ok, I’m going to take a stab at the OP. Really. Well, I’ll try anyway.
Ok, as many know, I’m Iranian-born to Iranian parents.
Why are so many people in Iran angry with the US? I’ll tell you, from personal family experience. Now, I myself am a citizen of the US as are many of my family, however, I am a citizen with the knowledge that the many tenticled arms of the USA in other parts of the world are often bloody.
Several uncles of mine were very active in the revolution against the Shah. They were tortured and kept in prison for several years (one for two years; one for 11 months) and still sustain scars from the lashings they got. I’ve seen them myself. Many of their friends were killed, exiled or tortured mercilessly. These men did nothing violent, terroristic, or against the law. They merely objected to their leader and wanted change.
Both these uncles were students at Tehran University, where they were considered members of the ‘intellectual class’ who were targeted by the Shah’s secret police, the Savaak. They were pulled from their beds in the middle of the night, had their homes searched (they had literature and books related to the revolution) and were taken away with no word to their families about what their fate would be. Mind you, these student-led rallies and protests were completely SECULAR. In order for the Shah to control the masses, he went after the intellectual class (writers, poets, artists).
Why do some people still hate the US?
Source: Taken from Background information on the crisis in Iran (Institute for Policy Studies. Washington, 1979). http://www.irvl.net/USMI.htm
"The United States has been deeply involved in Iranian affairs since the early 1940s. especially after Mohammed Reza Shah assumed the throne in 1941. Seeking to counter Russian and British influence in Iran during World War II, Washington sent a small military mission to Iran in 1943. After the War, the United States aided the Shah in his efforts to build a substantial base of support in the armed forces, by providing arms, equipment and training to the Iranian Army. The US also helped establish the Imperial Iranian Gendarmerie, a special internal security force under direct palace command, which played a decisive role in the Shah’s efforts to consolidate his control over the entire country.
America’s 1953 intervention in Iran to topple Premier Mohammed Mossadegh was one of the US’s first successful attempts to subvert a radical nationalist government. Mossadegh came to power in 1951 as leader of the National Front, and was appointed by the Shah under heavy pressure from the Iranian parliament (the MajIls). Mossadegh’s nationalisation of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company earned at first the enmity of the British, and then the United States, culminating in the new Eisenhower Administration’s decision to undertake covert action in support of a military coup. CIA Chief Allen Dulles and top Mideast operative Kermit Roosevelt engineered the fall of Mossadegh’s government in August, 1953.
After the coup, the United States helped the Shah consolidate his power, and the CIA and Defense Department were deeply involved in Iranian political affairs. **The CIA assisted in the creation of SAVAK (the National Security and Intelligence Organisation, Iran’s secret police) in 1957, and two recent US ambassadors to Iran, Richard Helms and William Sullivan, are noted for their organisational and operational links to the CIA. **During the current crisis, Ambassador Sullivan repeatedly met with the Shah and with Iran’s military ruler, General Azhari, to discuss the government’s strategy for suppressing the opposition."
“In 1978 the deepening opposition to the Shah errupted in widespread demonstrations and rioting. SAVAK and the military responded with widespread repression that killed twelve to fifteen thousand people and seriously injured another fifty thousand.”
taken from http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iran/savak.htm
So, when you see them chanting, “Down with USA” and “Yankee, go home” they’re not doing it because of what the media or government tell them to do feel that way, anymore than you do what your government tells you to do. When the government who does this was put in place and supported by the US, you can see why people still dislike the US.
One can dislike the actions of a government and not be “ALL Americans are the devil incarnate and should be wiped from the earth.”
One thing you’ll hear if you travel outside the States is that people will say, “I have nothing against Americans; it’s the government and foreign policy to which I object.”
Ouch!
**Ouch! **
Ok.! Ok.! Ok.! I throw my head down suddenly realizing the passive satirical ignorance I have demonstrated.
Sezyou said:
Me too.
Upon reflection as to my motives for this OP I am forced to think and admit just how much knowledge I lack in the realm of foreign relations. And all of you who have pointed out my ignorance on the subject are correct. I’ll take my licks for that. Why oh why didn’t I take the blue pill…? Admiting my error I’ll go do some reading…
Squink thanks for all the reading material!
deep sigh
Thanks Anahita. I appreciate your honesty.
No - you are missing the basic knowledge of contemporary history that would qualify you to take part in this discussion.
Anahita, after that post, I’m going to start stalking you.
And you have summed up the feelings of so many non-US citizens: if I criticise aspects of your government or your foreign policy, please do not think it reflects on you as a person.
Phlosphr - glad to see you took a second look at your own OP.
For the record, I know some Iraqis, even some who voted, and believe me, they had NO choice. Voting “no” to Saddam would be the equivalent of signing your and your family’s death warrant.
In terms of student protests, think Tianamen Square. Swap soldiers shooting for inprisonment, torture and death. As well as the students, throw in their families, siblings, friends, associates. Throw in their university teachers. Massacre them all as well. That’s really what you’re looking at.
Much as I do not support a war on Iraq under the current terms and excuses, Saddam’s regime is a reign of terror. It is just not analogous to students in the US.
http://www.houston.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/6140.php
Saddam was influential in Iraq long before 1979, and the fact that he was there at all was because of a US intervention. So while we didn’t personally install him (like say the Shah in Iran), we are responsible for his rise to power.
Saddam was our man in the middle East. First he killed communists for us, and then in the 80’s Islamic fundementalists in Iran.
My mistake. I had no idea we were playing the home version of the Discovery Channel’s Connections.
And I guess the major supporters of the US in the 70’s are responsible for George HW Bush being president? :rolleyes:
Yes there are actions taken by the US that made it possible for Saddam’s rise to power. But the actions after WWI could be said to be responsible for Hitler’s too. You still havn’t shown where the CIA installed him. Hyperbole?
:o No one doubts that the US support of Iraq in the Iran/Iraq war was no small matter. And that Iran was a hostile enemy towards the US. And that the US uses covert as well as overt actions to secure her interests in the world. But tell me how the goal was to kill Islamic fundies. More hyperbole?
Hit the wrong button 
Ooh, casting assertive aspersions without adding to a discussion or debate is so intelliegent and inciteful, I am honored to have you in this debate 