Oh, my Iraqi-American friends are all lying then, I suppose?
I have no way of knowing if they are lying or not.
Do you?
You’re right, they may all have come up with independent lies that seem strangely similar.
Ever since the days when I used to go to American schools and sing the American national anthem, I loved America and all things American. In my life I’ve met hundreds, maybe even thousands, of Americans and I never saw anything like what I’ve seen on this message board. I was willing to believe that the rumours I heard - such as those from my Arab-American friends - were either untrue or were simply isolated incidents, which didn’t reflect upon the general population. When the World Trade Center was attacked, I couldn’t believe that anyone could feel that this was even remotely justified, let alone cause for celebration. However, after what I’ve seen on this message board since then, I may be dancing in the streets myself the next time America is under attack.
How true it is that hatred begets hatred, and how sad…
Most people are happy when they’re dancing, but I guess yours will be a sad dance.
I don’t know what else to say, except that I’m astounded by your post.
I, on the other hand, can begin to understand Pennylane’s frustration.
I am truly SICK of the bullshit I find posted on these message boards (which are predominantly American, which is why I guess Pennylane posted that hyperbole). Just go stick your head in GD, once a place of learning, and look at the reams of propaganda driven bullshit on all sorts of topics, from people who very frequently don’t have a clue.
Not having a clue isn’t a crime, but fiercely espousing a categorical, ignorant, and/or bigoted point of view definitely is. (Well, it should be).
It’s called an “Urban Legend”, when a story circulates that allows people to believe what they want to believe.
Congratulations. You’re an asshole.
That was rather cute, Slip. Yes, it will be a sad dance.
I was astounded by your earlier post, too… but maybe more because it reminded me of other, harsher posts that I’ve seen here than for its own content. Sorry.
SPOOFE, I don’t think it is an urban legend when people close to me can name the school in which they saw it and the people who did it. Of course, you and Slip may think that they are lying but I know them, and I don’t. In the past I was inclined to believe that these incidents were anomalies… a couple of teenagers here and there trying to be rebellious or deliberately shocking. But now I’m not so sure.
I’m astounded at the posts in this particular thread. The point has certainly been made that there is ignorance on this board. To lump people together on the actions of a few is total ignorance. Dance in the street all you want, pennylane, I can assume you aren’t American so we can just lump you in with the others that hate America; since we are lumping all people together based on actions.
Maybe if we make this simple everyone can understand. Not everyone in the world has the same view on situations, just because someone lives in a city, town, country, continent, as others, doesn’t mean that he is responsible for the actions of others. Did it make me angry to see the dancing in the street after the 11th WTC? Hell yes it did. Did I blame the whole of Palestine? Not hardly. Do NOT judge other people until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Any one with common sense understands that the press has a tendency to be overzealous many times. So how many people were dancing? Where exactly? For how long? What exactly were they told? Who knows?
This is a message board. Take it with a grain of salt. To do otherwise is ignorant.
That’s good advice, ultress. I know I take things too seriously. My American boyfriend tells me that the anonymity of the Internet allows people to vent in an exaggerated and often overly hostile fashion which doesn’t necessarily reflect their true personalities. I know that this must be true because all the Americans I’ve personally met seem so level-headed and tolerant. But I still can’t help getting depressed at what I read here sometimes.
pennylane, all I can say is that if the people you refer to really saw something as horrible as what you say, you should by no means take it as representative of the American attitude in general. The idea of people laughing at pictures of dead Iraqi children makes me almost as sick as this comment:
It also occurs to me to say that the opinions of people on a message board should also not be taken as representative of the American whole. People tend to be a lot freer in their speech when they’re not looking into the faces of those who hear/read their words. Yes, people have been venting, foaming at the mouth, and so on, but the Internet is a conducive venue to that. Some people got it out of their systems. Some people have kept their opinions to themselves. The vitriol that’s been spewed has been by those who felt strongly enough about it to share their controversial views with a bunch of faceless strangers (yes, I know the “faceless strangers” part isn’t always true of this board, but I refer to the Internet in general as well). These people may not have the balls to speak up about their POVs in real life, knowing that their opinions could get them a sound ass-kicking. They retreat to MBs, like this, where the most they have to fear is a Pit thread, like this. As an example, I had the distinct misfortune of seeing someone in a chat room that ran automatically with a game I was playing online refer to Arabs as “sand niggers.” I don’t think this person would have been stupid enough to say this in any room full of strangers in real life, but because it was the Internet he felt secure enough in his idiocy to share it with one and all. Does this mean that all Americans think of Arabs in this way? Absolutely not; it meant that one fucking idiot with Internet access had balls when he was anonymous that he would never ever have in real life. Make sense? (note, in preview, I see that you’ve already said something like this. Meh, my point stands, I’m posting it anyway.)
That said, I will admit that I didn’t read many of the rants and threads that have been on the board regarding this crisis. My thoughts above apply to the peculiarities of the Internet in general. Although the SDMB has a far greater ratio of intelligent to moronic people than many other BBSs and MBs I’ve been to, it isn’t excluded from the syndrome described above. Feel free to lambaste and flame me for expressing my opinions without a definite knowledge of what exactly has been happening on the boards, but I believe that my thoughts apply in a generic sense. I did visit the thread linked in the OP, and while my comments should not be considered to apply to anyone specifically who participated in that thread they might be considered while reading it.
efrem, after reading the thread in question, I have to admit to being rather confused as to your anger. It seems to me that there’s a pretty lively discussion going on over there, and for every stereotyped comment about Palestinians there’s someone making an intelligent counterargument against. People are stupid. Especially on the Internet. But most people on the SDMB aren’t, and honestly if it’s just this thread that set you off I’m very confused. I see only two or three people being blatant idiots in their arguments, and a whole lot more people being very well-reasoned and rational. If a vocal and stupid minority is going to piss you off that much, I respectfully submit that you get off the Internet. The stupid minority is a billion times as vocal here as it is in real life. Sad but true.
Of course, saffostarr, that was my point, actually. The fact that there could be a small number of American kids who celebrate the deaths of Iraqi civilians doesn’t mean that all Americans do, any more than a small group of Palestinian kids dancing in the streets means that all Palestinians rejoice at the deaths of American civilians.
I particularly agree with your point regarding the vocal minority. I think that holds for this message board as well. People with moderate opinions may prefer not to express them for fear of being drawn into an ugly confrontation. But it’s just as hard to remember that here as it is when one sees clips of Palestinians dancing in the streets (obviously not for ultress, but for the more thin-skinned, perhaps).
Where I live, I’m surrounded by Arabs and Europeans. I hear frequent criticism of America and I have always been the champion of the land of the free and the home of the brave. But then sometimes I come here and think… who is it that I’m defending? Of course there are many, many of you who make it worthwhile.
It also just occurred to me that the only reason we know about the Palestinians dancing in the streets is that that’s what the media chose to show us. If ever there was a good way to whip up American sentiment against those bastard Arabs :sarcasm:, showing them dancing in the streets was a damn good way to do it. Many Americans wouldn’t have made the mental distinction between Palestinians and the actual perpetrators of the crime. By choosing to show this footage and portraying it as the attitude of all Palestinians – and by extension in the average American mind, all Arabs – the media ensured that our reactions would be even more inflamed than they already were. I think a bigger deal was made out of the few hundred people having this celebration than was made out of the support of our nation by so many others who roundly denounced the attacks.
ultress was right on with this one, actually. I like to think that rational, thinking people will take any stupid, vocal minority with a big chunk of salt. If intelligent people can adjust their minds to realise that the Palestinians shown on the news celebrating and throwing candy and whatnot were not representative of all Palestinians, all Arabs, or the world at large, then I think they can also understand that people ranting on a message board are expressing their own opinions and no one else’s. Sure, it might be hard, but IMHO you’re insulting your own intelligence by allowing yourself to be drawn into the illusion that we all share that mindset.
If there’s so many of us who make it worthwhile, why do the opinions of the few, the proud, the fucking idiotic bother you to the point that you post something as inflammatory as your burgeoning desire to dance in the streets the next time America is attacked? Don’t you think that sends a contradictory message?
Who is stereotyping what there, buddy?
Yes, I think so too.
Because, as you said, the few proud idiots are more vocal than the many nice people. So sometimes it begins to seem that the former outnumber the latter, even if it isn’t true.
Before I comment again, I would like the OP to actually take quotes from the thread and make their accusations more, um, clear. but that would require not stereotyping the board then, wouldn’t it?
Specifically deliniated with quote tags and names of the posters.
My point is that if you did, indeed, go out dancing in the streets as a result of the opinions of the vocal minority, don’t you think your good friends the nice people would be upset as well? I’m sorry, I guess I just have trouble understanding how you can say something like that and then back off, claiming that you understand that it’s very few people making you feel that way. To me, your declaration of your wish to dance in the streets is tantamount to an American saying “Kill all them fuckin’ Palestine bitches an’ let God sort 'em out!” when they saw the footage of the Palestinians dancing in the streets. That’s exactly the sort of attitude that you and the OP seem to be opposing, judging the many by the few and wanting to do something completely offensive as a result. You don’t view this as hypocrisy?
erislover, I’m with you. I just don’t see what the OP is so mad about.
sigh
Pennylane ( and Abe as well ): But you should note that not a single comment of bigotry or even exagerration tends to go uncommented on. Take the “Palestinians dancing in the street” discussions. For every person foaming at the mouth, there was someone else being reasonable about trying to track down the truth of the matter, consider the underlying causes, and put the situation in perspective.
Some people responded to the 11th by raging cathartically. They’ve since calmed down a bit, as might be expected and although I don’t think truly hateful comments should go unchallenged, I did extend some situational tolerance. I don’t see the same level of vitriol here as I saw the first two weeks after the attacks. I was shocked ( well, not entirely, I expected some of it ) at a few of the opinions being bandied about, but since then at least a couple of those people have seemed to have at least made an attempt to educate themselves and better understand what is going on. And that’s fine.
Some people are fairly dogmatic on certain issues, for whatever reason, but are at least willing to discuss them.
Some are simply misinformed, a common enough situation given the obscurity ( to most Americans - not a good thing, just a statement of fact ) of the region and its issues. So they post something ill-founded and are corrected. This is a good thing - It’s progress 
.
And a few, a minority IMO, are ignorant, raging, assholes, without the common sense of a rock. shrug The world is full of these people, no matter what the nationality. And the internet is overpopulated with them, because your boyfriend is right - Anonymity lends itself to trolling and spewing.
But, respectfully, I think you’re missing the forest for a few ( or a few more than a few 
) trees. Despite all the venting and misinformation, this is a pretty clever board, which is all the stronger for the wide political spectrum it covers ( an unusual situation on the internet, by the way, most net cultures are just a little more insular and slanted in one direction or another ).
As for Efrem, well he stepped into a minefield, because this is a particularly partisan issue and frankly I think his title was a worded poorly. Or too baldly, perhaps. While one can draw parallels between the Israelis and Palestinians re: the spiraling violence in that region, I think it is a little erroneous to make an unqualified, straight-line equivalency between the two. The motivation behind the violence is a little different, because of the different positions of the two sides. This neither good nor bad, necessarily - Both sides have things to answer for. And I think at least some of the seemingly more heated responses were simply puffed up hyperbole, rather than strongly-held, unqualified conviction ( just like your own dancing in the streets comment - or am I mistaken? ). I may be wrong or too generous, but that’s my sense.
Damn, I have more t say, on the psychology of teen-age culture and American vs. European views, but it’s quitting time and if I don’t post what I have now, I’ll have to re-type at home . More later, perhaps.
- Tamerlane
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by saffostarr *
**
Yes, I would, if I did really do something like that. I didn’t say that I wish to dance in the streets, just that I’m getting to the point where I might (although that was an exaggeration - I’m really just getting to the point where I might not defend Americans as strenuously as I have in the past). You’re right, dancing in the streets is on par with calling for the deaths of all Palestinians.
I’m trying to say that I’m being dragged down to the level of the lowest people on this board… in effect becoming no better than them. And I think it’s a sad and a horrible thing… hard to believe it is happening to me.
I think this quote from efrem explains why he’s angry:
“I hate it when people drown me by the sheer mass of their replies.”
In other words, he can’t stand the fact that more people are disagreeing with him than supporting him.
efrem’s first complaint here in the Pit is that people are arguing that Palestinians are terrorists. Indeed, one of the first statements you see in his thread is “Palestinian Terrorists have targeted and killed many innocent Israelis.” The trouble is, that statement was made by efrem. I didn’t see anyone in the thread arguing that all Palestinians are terrorists.
efrem, I suggest that you cease equating ignorance with disagreement, and stop distorting what your opponents are saying.
To clarify slightly now that I’m home. I meant to say that drawing an exact parallel between Palestinian terrorists and Israel is erroneous, as the two are different sorts entities entirely, one an entire nation with both good and bad elements, the other a narrowly focused small sub-group that is acknowledgedly evil ( though certainly the line blurs just very slightly when one considers the charity aspect of groups like Hamas ). I would say the same if some someone tried to draw a straight-line equivalency between Iran and, say, al-Quaeda. Hence it was a sloppy and IMO unnecessarily inflammatory hypothesis to begin with and that’s why I think it drew so much flack. More qualification and tighter focus by the OP might have diminished the pile-on factor a bit.
By the way Abe, while I agree with all ( well most, anyway) of your factual points in that thread, as I tend to agree with most of your posts on this subject in general, I think that this…
…is just a little overstated. I don’t think it is a majority or even a very large minority. Like I said, I think people do get called on the most inaccurate stuff . Like by you, for example. And I think most open bigots tend to get slapped down. shrug Just MHO as always.
- Tamerlane