Palestinians

Great Debates
1

I just saw some news footage on TV which made me sick.
It made me sick to the point where I could not watch or listen and missed a lot of it.

A crew was filming in the center of Ramallah. Lots of people (Palestinians) on the street and a cars in a jam, not moving. Shots ring out and two or three men in Palestinian headgear are shooting with long arms, at point blank range, at someone who is now on the ground and out of camera view due to the cars. The people on the street do not only not move away but they move closer to see what’s going on. The camera also moves closer. The men who were shooting shout a few things and run away. It seems they just shot some Palestinians suspected of cooperating with Israel. The camera points at them dying on the ground saying "please help me"and such things. A circle of men are standing around. No one does anything, no one cares. The men continue in agony until they die amid the amusement of their own countrymen. (I am not claiming total accuracy because I really was sick and could not look or hear.)

Not that I had any doubt of what side I am on in this struggle but if I did have any doubts this would make up my mind. This was not a few men, it was everybody standing around. This is what Palestinians stand for? This is the way they treat their own?

Of course, I expect someone can explain how it is all Israel’s fault but as far as I am concerned… well… I’m not going to say… I need to calm down first. This is totally sickening. I am disgusted.

2

I am surprised that this was done in front of the TV cameras. WSJ Opinion Journal had a column 2 days ago saying that this sort of thing is fairly common.

In the rest of the article, there are more grisly examples.

3

I can’t wait for that utopian Palestinian State to be established. What a rich, productive culture we’ll see there! Artists, craftsman, scholars…if only Israel would pull out and allow this great society to thrive!

4

Surely it doesn’t need to be pointed out that:

  1. The two or three persons responsible for the shooting do not represent the 2.9 million Palestinians currently living in the West Bank or Gaza Strip, or for that matter, the Palestinian population of the world;

  2. However many people who stood and watched do not represent those 2.9 million Palestinians either;

  3. The people who simply watched without interfering probably did so for fear of their own lives; the fact that they simply stood their and did not express glee or happiness that this happened suggests this; or that

  4. Israeli factions have participated in the same infighting among their own ranks?

5

Yeah, but you know its only a matter of time Israel invades Palestine because some morons decide they want to keep on suicide bombing people.

6

No. Arguing, insulting, shouting, backstabbing and libeling, yes. But no shooting. All political assasinations in Israeli history - both of them - were carried out by individuals unasociated with any group.

7

Arafat certainly doesn’t (effectively) represent them either.

I’m moved to wonder what those people could’ve done otherwise without getting shot themselves.

I see you wonder the same thing.

[list=a][li]How many of the IDF were shot on the spot because someone else in the IDF merely thought they were collaborators?[/li]How many Israeli civilians have been shot on the spot because someone in the IDF or the Police merely thought they were collaborators?[/list=a]

8

This does make me sick, but in more ways then one.

The first way this made me sick is how an down an outright murder has taken place. Sadly vigilantism against “colabrators” happens quite a lot in the West Bank and Gaza. This is something that (of course) must be fought against with fury. The extra way that this felt so bad was the way no one would help the guy who died in the street without justics (very sad :frowning: ).

As for the second way… Why the hell are you guys acting so high and mighty for. This reaction of “See those Palestinians are barbaric” is hypocritical and ignorant. My lord, this is not the first time something like this had happened.

Do you guys have any idea how many public exicutions and lintching that have been carryed out by unruly mobs in American (and world) history. A lot of these weren’t even carryed out during times of war, now how many Americans have been shot for “collaborating with the enimey” (or for a lot less) in WWII and other wars.

I suppose however they don’t have a deserve to be states either. Or that they don’t have a “rich, productive culture” with “Artists, craftsman, scholars”.

What the hell do you think would happen if during the aftermath of the WTC bombings a New yorker was found to have helped OBL. He would be publicly gutted, not shot and left to die. Hell, how many Americans would love to pull the trigger on John Walker L. and he was only helped the Taliban not OBL. Currently how many of you would think if JWL was dragged onto the street and shot in New York, How many people would run up and try to save him? How many would cheer his death?

What sailor had just witnessed was sick, but what also makes me sick is the hypocrascy of condemming something that in no way is isolated to Palestinians.

9

My spelling just sucks. :o

10

I knew someone would have to rationalize this. I am sick to my stomach

Surely it doesn’t need to be pointed out that:

>> 1. The two or three persons responsible for the shooting do not represent the 2.9 million Palestinians currently living in the West Bank or Gaza Strip, or for that matter, the Palestinian population of the world;

> 2. However many people who stood and watched do not represent those 2.9 million Palestinians either;

This is ridiculous. Are you going to tell me that a random sample of maybe 100 or 200 people on the street does not represent anything? What a coincidence! Do you hear the Palestinian people as a whole decrying these acts? Not one moved away, they all moved towrds the dying men. Not one did anything to help, they just stood by amused to see a man struggling for his life. There was no fear for the gunmen who had already left. There was curiosity and amusement to see a man suffering and dying. It was barbaric.

>> 3. The people who simply watched without interfering probably did so for fear of their own lives; the fact that they simply stood their and did not express glee or happiness that this happened suggests this; or that

NO! There was no fear! They came closer to see men dying. It was sheer amusement. The gunmen had left. Are you going to tell me these things are done by a very few minority against the wishes of the majority? Lets get real.

  1. Israeli factions have participated in the same infighting among their own ranks?

<sigh> Same? You really mean Israelis are killing their own every day like that? You can’t be serious.

And the fact that such things have happened in other countries in other times does not excuse them. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. The difference is other countries have progressed more toward civilization. Plaestinians have not moved any closer to creating any kind of political system with a rule of law. Zero. If I had to chose between living in Israel and living among Palestinians there’s no way in the world I’d live among Palestinians. And saying a short number are not representative is just BS. The fact is that as a people they have not been able to build anything resembling a civilized society. I am sickened. I wish I had not seen that.

11

But, as the cite above indicates, these killings are government policy.

Regardless of the immorality, how can the Palestinians make peace with Israel, when anyone who moves in that direction can be executed? This is a no-win situation for Israeli people and Palentinian people.

What means o fighting do you suggest? Since it’s Arafat’s policy, perhaps the right means is to imprison Arafat. I suspect efrem wouldn’t support that approach. I’m not sure I would, either.

OK, but then what should we do?

12

The murder of suspected collaboraters by fellow Palestinians is nothing new. 50 Palestinian children are being held hostage in the Church of the Nativity by other Palestinians. If an Israeli was doing the shooting, then that fotage would be having a very wide play indeed. And many posters on these boards would be using it to decry the evil of Israel. Be honest with yourselves (you know who you are), if that was an Israeli you’d be unlikely to be making excuses. You wouldn’t be saying don’t condemn Israelis because of the actions of a few. You would not take the position that it is hypocritical to condemn Israelis for what is in no way isolated to them. You hold Israelis to a higher standard.

The public (and some posters here) just does not see this activity as “news”, they expect it. To them a Palestinian life snuffed out by another Palestinian just doesn’t count as anything worth getting upset over; hell, this just happens. I guess they think of them as subhuman.

No, this is not what I think a Palestinian state would bring. A state would bring rule of law. America does have people who would love to gut someone thought of as a collaborater; but we have a system that controls it and mostly prevents it. Israel does too. The Palestinians do not. They have Arafat and others implicitly endorsing such activities. It is not implicit to being a West Bank Arab. It is implicit to living in anarchy and the absence of real leadership. The PA will not police this, the IDF cannot.

What to do? Find a way to get an autonomous Palestinian entity in place that is motivated to have real rule of law. Find a way to have a settlement that acknowledges the Israeli need for security, while giving the West Bank Arabs an economically viable area with a future filled with promise (instead of Arafat’s empty promises)

Will it happen? Hope decreases every day.

13

Isn’t it American government policy to kill “colaberators” during time of war, also?

**

I have a feeling the executions were made to be carried out on people who are not trying to move towards peace (of which would require massive exterminations of palestinians) but are aiding and abiting the Israeli Government in subjegating other Palestinians. However, lord knows that this is never the case when it come down to it.

**

I’m glad you really think that imprisioning Arafat would bring an end to all the hardline stances that most Palentinians have. Some people for a strange reason think it will end everything, instead it just makes things worse.

The best way I can think of to get someone to stop hating you is to be nice to them. Maybe if Israel was nicer to the Palentinians, Palentinians would be nicer to Israel (If that one party really wants peace it shouldn’t matter if they are the ones who have to make the intial commitment). It would turn into a cycle of love instead of hate ;).

14

That shoud be:

“I’m glad you don’t think that imprisioning Arafat would bring an end to all the hardline stances that most Palentinians have.”

15

No. Flat out murder is not the policy of the US government. You may have heard some discussion about an executive order prohibiting assassinations also.

You have a feeling? And exactly how is Israel subjugating the Palestinians? Everything so far indicates it’s Arafat and his crowd doing that. Israel has attempted to make peace and, yet, is constantly attacked.

16

Eh? First of all we have no way of knowing that said “collaborators” really were and even how “collaborator” is defined in this instance. These don’t have to have been informants. There have been cases of Palestinians killed by extremists for as simple a thing as verbally opposing the intifida. Further, even if they had been in contact, in some way, with Israeli authorities, that does not mean they were generally uninterested in peace or in “aiding and abetting the Israeli government in subjugating the Palestinians.” In point of fact, it is just as likely, if not more so, that the executioners were among those Palestinian extremists who have no interest in peace with Israel, because they think ( somehow ) that they will win and drive all the Jews into the sea ( or whereever ).

This was a brutal, nasty act. Not uncommon in wars such as this, but no less repulsive because of it. I’m not generally happy about a few of the posters in this thread that have taken this incident ( and how ever many others ) and used it to imply an indictment on an entire people. But there is no point in making the reverse mistake and trying to excuse this act as anything other than what it is - Disgusting.

  • Tamerlane
17

That’s a nice theory, but in practice, it didn’twork. Israel, at some point, has to stand up and defend its people.

Israel has, for 30 years, suppled the Palestinians with the best free education in the Middle East, the freest Arabic language press in the Middle East, the best health care in the Middle East, etc.

In return, there are large numbers of Palestinians who want to destroy Israel and her people, and who, for some twisted reason, have rationalized the killing of all Jews everywhere, wherever they may be found.

If it were a few radicals here and there, Israel could be nice, and use civil courts and police to find and prosecute these murders. Unfortunately, its not a just few people. Anti-Judaism is rampant with Palestinian leaders publically supprting lies such as Blood libel, holocaust revisionism, historical revisionism, Protocols of the Elders, and Jewish WTC 9/11 conspiracy theories.

No mater how many concessions Israel makes, or how nice they are, they will never convice someone to like Jews, if they were taught from a young age that Jews drink the blood of Christian children for Passover.

Even if Israel gave the PA all of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem, and gave all Palestinians “right” of return, that would not change the fact that Hamas wants all of Israel destroyed. And, if we take Arafat’s claim as true that he has nothing to do with the daily suicide bombings, why would any number of Israeli concessions to him, or niceness to the Palestinian people, change the frequency of the bombings?

18

Actually, to my eyes I’m seeing very little condemnation of an entire people, and a lot of condemnation of a corrupt system under which an entire people live.

19

You do know your agreeing with me?

20

IMNAL so maybe we need some legal help with this one. Does anyone know if America has the death pelinty for treason during war time?
**

Wow, this is another thread altogether. However, it is a bit one sided to think that Palestinians are doing all the attacking, and that Israel has done nothing to harm them.