Palestinians

They can do that, but if they do they won’t be offering peace anymore they would be contributing to war. If Israel (or Palestine) really wanted peace, then no matter what would happen the olive branch would always be out. The Palestinian people won’t hate a country that always helps them. Peace is easy for those who want it, when one or both sides wants peace they will get it. So, far I never have seen either really go for it.

Perhaps. But your “I have a feeling…” comment comes just comes a little too close to sounding exculpatory for my comfort. It’s also inflammatory in the sense that I do not believe the Israeli government as a whole is interested in “subjugating” the Palestinians, though I have no doubt that many Palestinians see it that way and that some ( a small minority ) of Israelis might wish it ( though actually most of the really extreme, nutball Israelis simply want to expel all Palestinians ).

Spoofe: Actually I agree this is probably what most people mean. It’s just that I have a problem with unqualified statements. I suppose many people think it is nitpicky bullshit, but Sailor’s and zwaldd’s comments in particular seem condemnatory in a broader sense. Heat of the moment and high emotion? Probably. Which is understandable enough. But it still bugs me.

shrug Maybe it’s just my own blinders and lack of reading comprehension, though. I’m certainly not prepared to accuse anybody of racism or anything like that.

  • Tamerlane

You kept your tact as always DSeid, could you possibly be talk to moi? It would be nice to know, so I can reply or ignore your post accordingly.

I don’t believe this comment was directed at me, but I would like to clarify my position anyway. I certainly don’t consider either Israelis or Palestinians “subhuman” and I don’t hold either group to higher standards than the other. I am saddened that so many pointless deaths have occured; I am sadder still because I don’t see any resolution to this conflict on the horizon. I hold both Palestinians and Israelis responsible for this conflict. Both sides have made huge lapses of judgement, have killed innocent people; both factions seem driven to nonsensical violence without consideration for the lives lost or the ultimate result of their madness. And from my understanding, neither Sharon nor Arafat are at all willing to make concessions or compromise their own agendas to stop the needless killing of their own peoples. I hold both Israelis and Palestinians equally responsible for this conflict; having said that, I must also state that because I do not belong to either group, and because I have not experianced firsthand the terror, desperation, and violence that define their lives at this point, I have no right to point the finger at anyone.

I question your use of “civilized,” first of all. But based on what I think you mean by civilized, I would argue that civilized societies do not appear overnight, and they do not appear amid chaos, war, or extreme violence of which their own peoples are a part.

The Palestinians had less then two decades to try to create a civilized state. America had over a hundred and fifty years of “civilization” (at least; I’m counting the Constitution forward) when lynchings occurred - certainly as brutal as what you witnessed on that video, if not more so. If you look at the course of the development of any newly formed country or state, you will see rocky progress, obstacles, and infighting. Why would you expect anything different from the Palestinian state?

Luckily, sailor, you don’t have to choose between living in two war-torn countries. But even so, there is a choice for you to make. If only we were all so lucky.

There are two major problems here. The first is that the Palestinian Authority has been a LOUSY police service. Its ideological bent means that it has always looked the other way when things like this happen. And it should be pointed out that the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is an arm of the Palestinian Authority, and they are one of the worst offenders.

Second is that Arafat and his cronies have been cultivating an atmosphere of hatred against Israel for decades, including lies in schoolbooks and constant propaganda campaigns. And since they have a vested interest in blaming Israel for all their problems, there has been no effort at self-examination. And since the PA controls the press, there is no chance for an alternative voice to be heard.

So now you have a civilization full of large numbers of people who have literally grown up and spent their entire lives hating Israel, and who have no developed the healthy habit of inward reflection.

Anyone who says that this is the action of just a few bad apples is unwilling to look at the situation realistically. Every indication that we have suggests that a HUGE percentage of the Palestinian population is extremely militant. Polls show that a high percentage of the people support suicide bombings. Street executions and persecutions are common. Preparing children to be suicide bombers is not only accepted, but condoned and supported. Parades are held in which children are dressed up with fake bombs strapped to them. The families of suicide bombers are showered with accolades and money.

You can make the claim that the Palestians are mostly peace-loving and want to have their own state and get on with their lives, but it’s hard to find evidence to support that point of view. Where are the Palestinian dissenters? Where are the Palestinians fleeing their despotic regime? Where is the new crop of statesmen? If the Palestinians want a state so badly and don’t really care about Israel, why did Arafat’s popularity skyrocket when he declared the first and second intifadas?

I think it’s important to recognize that the Palestinian people themselves are at least equally to blame for the state of their culture, and that any true peace in the future will require that they begin to look inwards and change their own society, rather than just looking outwards and blaming all of their problems on others.

Likewise, it’s important that we recognize that we can’t solve the Palestinian problem just by getting rid of a few ‘troublemakers’. There has to be a sea change of opinion in Palestinian society. I have no idea how to do that.

Agreed.

Agreement here, as well.

I don’t know about “peace-loving”. But I do get the impression that many want peace, if for no other reason that they know they are between a rock and hard place. Not every Palestinian is so delusional as to think they have any chance of “winning” an armed struggle. Poll results are very depressing, but not entirely one-sided. Without debating internal accuracy , one recent poll ( sep/Oct 2001 ) of Palestinians declared that:

45.6% support the idea of a Palestinian state as is currently thought of in the west. 41.2% supported a “complete liberation” of Palestine. About a 50-50 split. Bad numbers, but no universal belief. In 1996 78% backed peace with Israel.

79% support the intifada. No suprise here.

38.1% backed the Oslo accord. 53.9% did not. But I believe those numbers have some congruency with Israeli public opinion as well. In 1996 75% backed the accord.

A very disturbing 68.6% supported suicide tactics. That is extremely sobering. But in 1999 that number was 26.1% ( still scarily high, but not nearly as bad ). Which means that as awful as this figure is, it is a very recent trend and result of the current strife. Which IMHO means that peace can reverse it.

This data taken in part from here ( again I make no claim as to poll accuracy and the above link doesn’t include the 41rst and most recent poll which I cited numbers from above ):

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/pop/01/jun/pop4.htm#one

My point with all those numbers, is that dire as public opinion among Palestinians is today, it was very different just a few years ago and appears ( to my perhaps biased eyed ) to be situational, not hard-wired cultural. This can be overcome.

Dead, in hiding, not speaking up out of fear, disillusioned generally ( see the changing poll data over time I cited above ). ( Noting that of course the people they have to fear is the PA, among others ).

Most have nowhere to go. Those that could leave, largely have ( there are many Palestinians in this country ). Some, perhaps, are trying to stick it out because of powerful ties or fading hope.

Dead, hiding, marginalized, etc.

Because he was seen as acting. Never mind that it was in vain - If you’re powerless or nearly so, even stupid resistance will be cheered. Ignorant? Probably - But understandable.

I agree. But the atmosphere that would allow for a possibility of change has to exist.

Yep. It’s a nasty Catch-22. We won’t see a real change unless this tension subsides, but until there is a change the tension will not ( or at least may not ) subside.

Like I’ve said before - I’m pessimistic though not yet completely without hope.

  • Tamerlane

Efrem,

Apparently you’re either unaware or just don’t want to admit that the United States, even during war, tends to have these nifty little things called trials.

I find the killing of presumed “collaborators” to be appalling, but why in the world are we using the term collaborator? While I realize that the definition is technically correct, there are plenty of people who see this term and think they were just trying to share ideas for peace, etc. The OP even used the term cooperating. Have you seen any news sources that label Brian Regan a collaborator or a cooperator?

A spy is a spy, no matter what name you call them. We kill Americans who give info to other countries, they kill Palestinians who give info to Israel. If the shooters held a trial in the street before the shooting, there wouldn’t be much of a difference between the two actions. Being killed for treason is not a Palestinian invention.

Be appalled that they shoot people before proving their guilt, but don’t be so appalled by the fact that they kill folks who they presume are spies.

Unless you are against the death penalty, which I am. :slight_smile:

DMC: Except that ‘collaborater’ is a much broader notion in terms of the Palestinian conflict. ‘Collaboraters’ have been defined as people who simply disagree with the intifada. In other words, political dissenters are ‘collaboraters’.

I also wouldn’t be surprised to find that a number of the killings are simply grudge settlements being carried out under cover of the fog of war.

More than a dissenter

Is this dissent?

There are plenty more where those came from. Would you care to cite where it says that collaborators are simply dissenters?

While that is possible, it’s also possible Brian Regan stole Dubya’s girlfriend in high school and is being framed now as revenge. I’ll happily look over any evidence you might provide to back up your statement, but until then I’ll stick to them being presumed spies.

Oh Efrem, Thanks for (unintentional) best laugh I’ve had all day!

Of course, the Jews have just not been NICE enough for the last two thousand years. We should’ve sent Hitler more flowers. That would’ve done it! Doh!

A solution to this mess is possible, but it isn’t through a 60’s Love-fest. It is with a slow laborious process of negotiation and baby step interim plans. This will be a situation where big fences will make good neighbors. It can occur as soon as the West Bank Arabs have leadership that realizes that they won’t make Israel go away, that they won’t get everything they want, but they CAN get a better future for their children by negotiating in good faith and compromising. When their leadership turns to trying to build their nation rather than destroying Israel’s.

Jesus on a pogo stick Dseid, can you not see the point that he was making?

If The Israeli’s constantly live up to the image that Arafat paints of them to the public, are you suprised that there are kids ready to sacrafice their lives to fight Israel?

Israel are painted as the Agressor. And they are certainly doing everything in their power to live up to that. Their recent actions in Jenin will create a whole new Generation of palestinians ready to go to war.

Look at this picture.

This makes me just as sick as you got when you watched the footage in Ramallah.

It is insanity on both sides.

So, do Palestinians. At the times that the people were killed without a trail that is murder, and comparable to mob rule and lyntchings that American(and world) history is not excempt from.

Although all this is moot for a person who is agianst the whole idea for the death penalty (like myself).

That is good, but it will in no way will take away the years of harded animosity that both sides have for each other, then a big 60’s style orgy can do.

**

Israel has one of the biggest fences in the world, do the people feel safe yet?

It wrenches my guts to do this, but I feel the point has to be made.

WARNING: These pictures are NOT for the faint of heart or the weak of stomach!

This is a link to a Washington DC Indymedia article that contains photos of victims from the recent events in Jenin.

Please, please, please… tell me two things.

  1. How can the shooting of a collaborator by Palestinians possibly match what you see here in terms of brutality?

  2. How can any of those victims’ deaths possibly be justified under the defense of Israel and the “war against terrorism”?

GD Mods: This is indeed some graphic content. I’m not putting it in here purely for shock value or simply to offend. There’s a point I feel needs to be made here, and this is, unfortunately, the only way I can see to do it. If you feel strongly enough that the link needs to be deleted, then do so; but please contact me by e-mail so we can discuss it if you do.

Where exactly was the trial, efrem? Those folks were killed on the street.

Now, let me know if you’re going to start up with “but there was a trial; the convicts just weren’t advised to appear at it.”

You know, to heck with it and you. You’re refusing to understand the facts many others have pointed out to you. Say “hi” to everyone else in Coventry.

Perhaps I could post some pictures of innocent civilians massacred during passover. Can you possibly justify them being blown up to protest occupation?

We don’t know anything about the people in the pictures shown here. They could be the the poster boys of terrorism for all we know.

Just as an added fact, do you know that Israel posts guards in every kindergarden class because they are that afraid of them becoming a target? I know I couldn’t live my life like that.

P.S. I read that in an interview. I could try to find a cite if someone wants me to.

Yea, I’m going to believe a “news organization” that refers to Israel as "The Zionist entity ". Even if we believe this is the work of the Israeli Army (In spite of the total lack of objectivity/credibility of the source, it probably is)… so what? Yep, people are dead. The Israelis and Palestinians are engaged in armed conflict. That’s what happens. I can link you to horrific pictures of babies blown apart by Palestinian suicide bombers. Your link is meaningless Olentzero.

Monty:

:eek: :eek: double :eek: