Illegal Alien Worker and his US Employer.

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
Well, it has been (alleged) that the illegal alien worker actually pays taxes. I doubt it:
-suppose you own a landscape company. Jose (newly arrived from mexica) shows up looking for a job. You give him a stolen SS number, and pay him a trivial amount ($1.20/hour). Jose pays /has deucted taxes and SS on that amount. meanwhile, you pay him (cash0 an additional $8.00/hour. Now, Jose meets and marries an illegal alien, and they have a child (automatic american citizen). This “authorizes” them to stay in the US-and they become eligible for welfare, free medical care, public housing. meanwhile Jose files his tax return-and claims 12 dependents 9and gets all of his taxes back, PLUS EIC!). The holder of the (stolen) SS number gets a demand note from the IRS, for the amount of the taxes and EIC rebated to Jose.-only he can’t figure out how he (a corporate executive) wound up working for a landscape company in another state.
So, in sum: the owner of the company gets rich (because he can pay Jose substandard wages), the US taxpayer gets screwed (because he winds up paying the bills for Jose and his family0, and the ho,der of the SS number gets a big bill!
What a wonderful system? :smack:
[/QUOTE]

Ralph,
The KID is an American citizen. That DOESN’T mean the Feds will let the PARENTS stay here.
I’ve seen a legal dad and an illegal mom, along with 3 legal kids.
INS had no trouble tossing mom in a detention facility and beginning the process to deport her to Germany.

22

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
Well, it has been (alleged) that the illegal alien worker actually pays taxes. I doubt it:
-suppose you own a landscape company. Jose (newly arrived from mexica) shows up looking for a job. You give him a stolen SS number, and pay him a trivial amount ($1.20/hour). Jose pays /has deucted taxes and SS on that amount. meanwhile, you pay him (cash0 an additional $8.00/hour. Now, Jose meets and marries an illegal alien, and they have a child (automatic american citizen). This “authorizes” them to stay in the US-and they become eligible for welfare, free medical care, public housing. meanwhile Jose files his tax return-and claims 12 dependents 9and gets all of his taxes back, PLUS EIC!). The holder of the (stolen) SS number gets a demand note from the IRS, for the amount of the taxes and EIC rebated to Jose.-only he can’t figure out how he (a corporate executive) wound up working for a landscape company in another state.
So, in sum: the owner of the company gets rich (because he can pay Jose substandard wages), the US taxpayer gets screwed (because he winds up paying the bills for Jose and his family0, and the ho,der of the SS number gets a big bill!
What a wonderful system? :smack:
[/QUOTE]

By way of background, I worked in the immigration field for a couple of years.

Having a child in the US in absolutely positively no way authorizes an undocumented alien to stay in the US. Undocumented parents are routinely deported.

On the issue of public assistance, the [=url]Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996[\url] in regards to the lie that undocumented aliens can get access to public assistance:

[=quote]Title V contains amendments to the welfare bill, the Social Security Act, and the INA which are directed at limiting aliens’ access to public benefits. Proof of citizenship is required to receive public benefits and verification of immigration status is required for Social Security and higher-educational assistance. A transition period (until April 1, 1997) is established for aliens who are currently receiving food stamps.

The requirements for an affidavit of support for sponsored immigrants are tightened and that document is defined as an enforceable contract. The deeming requirements for attribution of a sponsor’s income and resources are narrowed (at least 125 percent of the Federal Poverty Line). States are authorized to deem income of the sponsor for the purposes of benefits under means-tested programs, to limit assistance to aliens, and to distinguish among classes of aliens in providing general cash public assistance. Several verification and eligibility requirements are established for receipt of housing assistance or other financial assistance related to housing.

Title V provides for reimbursement to states or local governments for costs related to emergency medical treatment of illegal aliens where those entities can not obtain reimbursement from other sources.[\quote]

Anyone who has a legal immigration status is now required to prove that they have a sponsor who earns up to 125% of the poverty line for the immigrant and all their dependents. You cannot get a green card if you don’t have a sponsor who can demonstrate that they can keep you off assistance. If an immigrant goes on assistance, the states are allowed to go after the sponsor to recup costs.

23

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
Well, it has been (alleged) that the illegal alien worker actually pays taxes. I doubt it:
-suppose you own a landscape company. Jose (newly arrived from mexica) shows up looking for a job. You give him a stolen SS number, and pay him a trivial amount ($1.20/hour). Jose pays /has deucted taxes and SS on that amount. meanwhile, you pay him (cash0 an additional $8.00/hour. Now, Jose meets and marries an illegal alien, and they have a child (automatic american citizen). This “authorizes” them to stay in the US-and they become eligible for welfare, free medical care, public housing. meanwhile Jose files his tax return-and claims 12 dependents 9and gets all of his taxes back, PLUS EIC!). The holder of the (stolen) SS number gets a demand note from the IRS, for the amount of the taxes and EIC rebated to Jose.-only he can’t figure out how he (a corporate executive) wound up working for a landscape company in another state.
So, in sum: the owner of the company gets rich (because he can pay Jose substandard wages), the US taxpayer gets screwed (because he winds up paying the bills for Jose and his family0, and the ho,der of the SS number gets a big bill!
What a wonderful system? :smack:
[/QUOTE]

You “doubt” that illegal aliens pay taxes, but do you have any evidence that your little scenario here is the norm (or has ever happened even once)? It’s obviously tough to pin down exact numbers, but as **Eva Luna **'s link shows there’s evidence that illegals contribute up to $7 billion a year in payroll taxes.

And I can’t see where an employer would have any incentive to go along with your scheme. First off, an employer can’t report the illegal’s income as $1.20 per hour – federal minimum wage is $5.15 an hour. And why would the employer want to expose himself to potential prosecution for tax fraud by paying the worker under the table?

24

[QUOTE=niblet_head]
By way of background, I worked in the immigration field for a couple of years.

Having a child in the US in absolutely positively no way authorizes an undocumented alien to stay in the US. Undocumented parents are routinely deported.

On the issue of public assistance, the [=url]Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996[\url] in regards to the lie that undocumented aliens can get access to public assistance:

[=quote]Title V contains amendments to the welfare bill, the Social Security Act, and the INA which are directed at limiting aliens’ access to public benefits. Proof of citizenship is required to receive public benefits and verification of immigration status is required for Social Security and higher-educational assistance. A transition period (until April 1, 1997) is established for aliens who are currently receiving food stamps.

The requirements for an affidavit of support for sponsored immigrants are tightened and that document is defined as an enforceable contract. The deeming requirements for attribution of a sponsor’s income and resources are narrowed (at least 125 percent of the Federal Poverty Line). States are authorized to deem income of the sponsor for the purposes of benefits under means-tested programs, to limit assistance to aliens, and to distinguish among classes of aliens in providing general cash public assistance. Several verification and eligibility requirements are established for receipt of housing assistance or other financial assistance related to housing.

Title V provides for reimbursement to states or local governments for costs related to emergency medical treatment of illegal aliens where those entities can not obtain reimbursement from other sources.[\quote]

Anyone who has a legal immigration status is now required to prove that they have a sponsor who earns up to 125% of the poverty line for the immigrant and all their dependents. You cannot get a green card if you don’t have a sponsor who can demonstrate that they can keep you off assistance. If an immigrant goes on assistance, the states are allowed to go after the sponsor to recup costs.
[/QUOTE]

All well and good, but i can take you to public housing complexes in Boston, where illegal aliens are living. They don’t deport illegals with US citizen children-it is too much of a hardship.

25

[QUOTE=flurb]
You “doubt” that illegal aliens pay taxes, but do you have any evidence that your little scenario here is the norm (or has ever happened even once)? It’s obviously tough to pin down exact numbers, but as **Eva Luna **'s link shows there’s evidence that illegals contribute up to $7 billion a year in payroll taxes.

And I can’t see where an employer would have any incentive to go along with your scheme. First off, an employer can’t report the illegal’s income as $1.20 per hour – federal minimum wage is $5.15 an hour. And why would the employer want to expose himself to potential prosecution for tax fraud by paying the worker under the table?
[/QUOTE]

NOPE-you are wrong. Farm labor is exempt from minimum wage laws-and all of these "landscape’ companies classify their help as agricultural laborers. Blame the farm lobby (and the big ranch owners in texas) for this!

26

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
All well and good, but i can take you to public housing complexes in Boston, where illegal aliens are living. They don’t deport illegals with US citizen children-it is too much of a hardship.
[/QUOTE]

Have you worked with immigration attorneys? Have you been there in the office when they get the panicked calls from family members? Have you read the case files of parents who are picked up and deported and their kids are left behind? Have you read the case files of adults who are picked up and take their kids with them back to a country where the kids don’t speak the language and know nothing of the culture/society? Too much of a hardship. Christ, that’s heh-LAR-ious.

My local paper’s website sucks, else I’d link you to the story of the El Salvadoran woman who’s being deported right now even though she has US citizen children.

Continue in this vein, and the only determination I can come to is that you chose to remain ignorant.

And you know those aliens living in that public housing are illegal how?

27

[QUOTE=niblet_head]
Have you worked with immigration attorneys? Have you been there in the office when they get the panicked calls from family members? Have you read the case files of parents who are picked up and deported and their kids are left behind? Have you read the case files of adults who are picked up and take their kids with them back to a country where the kids don’t speak the language and know nothing of the culture/society? Too much of a hardship. Christ, that’s heh-LAR-ious.

My local paper’s website sucks, else I’d link you to the story of the El Salvadoran woman who’s being deported right now even though she has US citizen children.

Continue in this vein, and the only determination I can come to is that you chose to remain ignorant.

And you know those aliens living in that public housing are illegal how?
[/QUOTE]

I know because two of them are my stepson’s cousins (from Guatemala).

28

Regardless, you are wrong in your assertion that undocumented immigrants are “eligible” for public housing. Further, according to the law, they could be undocumented and be granted the benefit if the granting agency does not know they are undocumented and is not required to verify their status as part of the granting process.

From here

[quote=]
Section 404 of PRWORA is not explicit with respect to the meaning of the term “knows.” After consultation, the responsible Federal agencies have determined that, for purposes of the requirement under section 404 that an entity report four times annually, an entity will “know” that an alien is not lawfully present in the United States only when the unlawful presence is a finding of fact or conclusion of law that is made by the entity as part of a formal determination that is subject to administrative review on an alien’s claim for any of the statutorily specified programs set out above. In addition, that finding or conclusion of unlawful presence must be supported by a determination by the Service or the Executive Office of Immigration Review, such as a Final Order of Deportation. A Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) response showing no Service record on an individual or an immigration status making the individual ineligible for a benefit is not a finding of fact or conclusion of law that the individual is not lawfully present. Equating “knowing” under section 404 of PRWORA with the formal determination described above under any of the statutorily specified programs affected by section 404 gives rational substance to an arguably ambiguous term and is not inconsistent with the legislative history of this provision.

This notice is not meant to suggest that a benefit granting agency is required to make a determination as to an applicant’s lawful presence if that determination is not otherwise necessary in order to determine whether the applicant is eligible for the benefit. Nor is it meant to suggest that a finding or conclusion as to immigration status made by a benefit granting agency has any weight outside the context of the alien’s eligibility for that particular benefit. Determinations of status for purposes of the Immigration and Nationality Act are the responsibility of the Department of Justice, not of any other agency.
[/quote]

29

[QUOTE=niblet_head]
Regardless, you are wrong in your assertion that undocumented immigrants are “eligible” for public housing. Further, according to the law, they could be undocumented and be granted the benefit if the granting agency does not know they are undocumented and is not required to verify their status as part of the granting process.

From here
[/QUOTE]

Oh, and I forgot to add; in MA, social workers are FORBIDDEN to ask a client’s nationality status. this has been judged 9by the MA Spreme Court) as “potentally discriminatory”!

30

So? All I need from you is acknowledgement that you were wrong both in your claim that undocumented immigrants are eligible for social services and that deporting a parent of a US citizen doesn’t happen cuz it’s a hardship.

31

[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net]
But there is a definate pattern to the numbers, and ranges are assigned to particular states, and were used for particular periods of time. Given the state of birth, you can check to see if that SSN could have been issued from that state.
[/QUOTE]

I’m a foreign national with a valid SS card. I was not born in this country. There’s no way to verify my SSN is valid by my birthplace.

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]

I think I have my answer however from this thread. It appears that SS numbers are issued by the state. Fifty separate identity data bases would suggest a lack of control by the government.
[/QUOTE]

It’s Federal, just as the SIN system is at home.

32

[QUOTE=FatBaldGuy]
No, the numbers are not issued by the state, they are issued by the Federal government, but the first 3 digits are assigned according to the state where the application originated. So if someone who knows the system sees that the first 3 digits of my SSN are 272, they will know that I applied for my card in Ohio (which is not where I was born, but where I lived when I got my first job).

[/QUOTE]

Well I’m back to square one, scratching my head wondering why we don’t have an officially undocumented worker problem in Canada. I just can’t see how it could happen here. Canada must be doing something better than the US which is rather ironic in that the American government doesn’t trust Canadian immigration policy.

33

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
NOPE-you are wrong. Farm labor is exempt from minimum wage laws-and all of these "landscape’ companies classify their help as agricultural laborers. Blame the farm lobby (and the big ranch owners in texas) for this!
[/QUOTE]

O.K. Doesn’t really answer my question, though. Is your employment scenario just hyperbole, or do you have some cite that this is common practice for employers hiring illegals? The New York Times article cited earlier claims that illegal aliens are contributing roughly $7 billion in payroll taxes into the Social Security trust fund annually – and that doesn’t even include witholdings for federal and state income taxes. Even if it is easier for illegals to cheat the tax man in the agricultural sector, many illegals work in the service or manufacturing industries where payroll and income tax witholdings are mandatory.

34

[QUOTE=flurb]
O.K. Doesn’t really answer my question, though. Is your employment scenario just hyperbole, or do you have some cite that this is common practice for employers hiring illegals? The New York Times article cited earlier claims that illegal aliens are contributing roughly $7 billion in payroll taxes into the Social Security trust fund annually – and that doesn’t even include witholdings for federal and state income taxes. Even if it is easier for illegals to cheat the tax man in the agricultural sector, many illegals work in the service or manufacturing industries where payroll and income tax witholdings are mandatory.
[/QUOTE]

I suggest you visit the kitchen areas of some local restaurants. You will find plenty of illegal aliens, working either for minimum wages, or off the books entirely. As i said, it appears that this is a good deal-but in the end, we all pay for this. take the town i live in-it costs us $2500/year for primary education per child..and who do you think is paying for the children of the illegals?
The fact that we turn a blind eye to illegal immigrant labor means that :
-we are reduing wages for legitimate , (US Citizen0 laborers
-we are in effect, telling the aliens that you don’t have to follw the law, and immigrate legally
As i said, the good effects (cheap labor) come first, the bad effects (lowered real wages, higher taxes for those who pay taxes) come later.

35

[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
My ss# is not from my state of birth, it is from a state I lived in for one year.
[/QUOTE]

Since I wasn’t born in the US. my SSN is not from the state of my birth. And it’s not even from a state: it’s from the District of Columbia. And I have never resided in DC: for a couple of weeks after I arrived to work in the US, I was working in an office in DC, so I used that office address to get the SS card sent to.

36

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
take the town i live in-it costs us $2500/year for primary education per child..and who do you think is paying for the children of the illegals?

[/QUOTE]

I am completely open to the possible fact that your town doesn’t fund its public education via property taxes.

But in case that’s not true, I’m sure that you know some undocumented alien somewhere who deducts the property tax portion out of the rent he pays his landlord.

(BTW, undocumented aliens buy houses, too, and pay property taxes that way.)

37

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
of course, the Congress doesn’t care-they are too busy padding their own pensions! :o
[/QUOTE]
I don’t see how they can be kept busy with this, since the Congressional pensions haven’t changed since 1983.

That was when the Civil Service Retirement System was replaced with the Federal Employee Retirement System. (Note that both are not special for Congress, but include other Federal employees.)

This seems to be just an inaccurate drive-by attack on Congress. Misplaced in GQ, which is for answers to questions. If you want to rant about Congressional pay or pensions, we do have a couple of places for such here: either Great Debates or the Pit woould be suitable. But not here in GQ, please.

38

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
Well I’m back to square one, scratching my head wondering why we don’t have an officially undocumented worker problem in Canada. I just can’t see how it could happen here. Canada must be doing something better than the US which is rather ironic in that the American government doesn’t trust Canadian immigration policy.
[/QUOTE]

You don’t have a long and hard-to-police border with a country that is much worse off economically than yours, so people want to cross the border to work. It’s significantly harder and more expensive to get from Mexico to Canada than it is to get from Mexico to the US.

Also, you don’t have politicians who are trying to find an issue, any issue, to distract you from a colossal screw-up of a war or a scandal in Congress that involves a congressman sending sexually explicit emails and IMs to underage boys.

What I don’t understand is this: My understanding was that, if someone were married to a US citizen, that spouse was legally allowed to live in the US. But there are cases of married couples where one spouse is legal and the other is illegal- what am I misunderstanding?

39

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
I suggest you visit the kitchen areas of some local restaurants. You will find plenty of illegal aliens, working either for minimum wages, or off the books entirely. As i said, it appears that this is a good deal-but in the end, we all pay for this. take the town i live in-it costs us $2500/year for primary education per child..and who do you think is paying for the children of the illegals?
The fact that we turn a blind eye to illegal immigrant labor means that :
-we are reduing wages for legitimate , (US Citizen0 laborers
-we are in effect, telling the aliens that you don’t have to follw the law, and immigrate legally
As i said, the good effects (cheap labor) come first, the bad effects (lowered real wages, higher taxes for those who pay taxes) come later.
[/QUOTE]

So, to clarify: no, you cannot cite your contention that illegals do not pay taxes.

40

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
What I don’t understand is this: My understanding was that, if someone were married to a US citizen, that spouse was legally allowed to live in the US.
[/quote]

No, the U.S. citizen spouse can apply to have the non-USC spouse be granted permanent residency. Here’s some info on the process. Adjudication time varies, but is rarely less than several months from application, and can be much longer than that. One childhood friend of mine petitioned for her husband, here legally as a Ph.D. student, and it took 3.5 years! By the time the application was approved, they’d acquired a condo and a lovely daughter.

If the “legal” spouse is a permanent resident rather than a citizen, there is a multi-year backlog before the non-green card holder spouse can receive a green card, even if all the other particulars are fine (valid marriage, etc.) Backlog info is here; if you read carefully you will see that, for example, there is currently a 6-year backlog for Mexican spouses of permanent residents to receive their green cards.