I'm a bigot.

The BBQ Pit
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Lissner,

You’ve been taking a lot of flack over in the Conservatism thread in Great Debates for perceived bigotry towards conservatives. I wish to take a moment to address that in a neutral thread, because of an earlier warning regarding hijacks and personal attacks. I want to make clear up front, however, I do not intend this as a personal attack. You see, I agree with the claims of bigotry, but I don’t hold it against you because I truly don’t think you see it. I also don’t hold you at fault for not seeing it, but because some do I’m begining this over in the pit just because, well…maybe I’m a bit of a pessamist.

To address the topic at hand, I need to explain how I am a bigot. Many of the folks in the conervatism thread hold up two prime examples of bigotry and wave them around: racism and religous intolerance. Only one of those, I feel, applies. Racism, as is fairly obvious, defines a group of people and finds faults based on elements generally unrelated to what defines that group. Oh, the claims are made that there are relationships, which is what prompts the more civil of us to point and claim “racisim!”

Religious intolerance, on the other hand, usually deals with elements that do define a group, and it’s that kind of bigorty that I feel applies here. I am a bigot of this sort, and I’m aware of it. Take Scientology. Much has been written about this religious organization, and sufficient evidence exists that many people feel it’s a dangerous cult. Does it mean just anyone who claims to be a Scientologist is crazy or dangerous? No, and yet if I meet someone who is a Scientologist I find myself distinctly uneasy.

A fairly reasonable response, I think many would say, but that isn’t all. I’m not too keen on the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints. Again, looking at its history and founding, I feel there is significant doubt as to the veracity of their belief system. It doesn’t make Mormons dangerous, but I feel it’s a dishonest religion and that colors my perception of Mormons.

One further step to damn myself: Christianity. I don’t believe in the inheirant divinity of the bible, and worse, I think Peter and other disciples deliberatly corrupted the message of Christ. In my eyes, the modern church is founded on divine principles corrupted by men (misogynistic ones at that), causing harm to all those who devote their lives to faith in that system. It hurts me, to see so much truth interwoven with subtle little lies, and yet I don’t think it’s any great conspiracy…just the weakness of the human condition.

I am a bigot in this way. When the topic is religion, my thoughts and emotions are colored by my beliefs. This is one of the reasons I lurk more on this board, than contribute. I’m not here to make a stand for my beliefs, but to better understand others, and there are some strong Christians here whom I admire. I brought up three different denominations to set an example. Scientologists aren’t popular, just look up the pit threads to see the damning evidence. Mormons are considered a fringe group by many, but “mostly harmless” on the whole. I’ve never seen anyone express an opinion on Christianity here quite in line with my own. But in each case, my opinions in each case reflect my opinion of a specific group based on their beliefs, and in each case it’s biogtry…no matter how common (or uncommon) my conclusions may be.

Conservatives will take offense with your opinions because they’ll feel they’re wrong, obviously. They’ll also take offense because the moment a poster you’ve never seen before steps forward to say, “I’m a conservative”, your opinion of them will be drastically altered forever by that simple statement. No matter how obvious the conclusion is, this is your opinion and while you remain unyielding to it people will see you as a bigot.

Now, as to what will make people happy around here…I’m not certain. The admission, “well, it doesn’t apply to every single one” doesn’t seem to work, and perhaps with good reason. No matter how much it’s implied, every time you start a sentance “Conservatives are…” people will remember how you feel, and judge your comments based on that. I think the thing to do is stop trying qualify conservatives, and focus your ire on those who formed these opinions in you. If it’s national media punits, great…you’ll find lots of support. If it’s other posters here, most of them seem thick-skinned enough to take it. But no one likes to be painted with a broad brush, and it’s only drawing folks out of the woodwork.

Like me. And I don’t even know what my poltical affiliation is yet. :wink:

I hope this is constructive, and I’ll be happy to discuss it with whomever wants to join in…
InkBlot

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InkBlot- I’m a SWM Christian Republican & also a bigot! Whatever Bless You for this!

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Bob chooses to cheat on his taxes. Bob is dishonest.

Carol decides to cheat on her taxes. Carol is dishonest.

Ted chooses to cheat on his taxes. Ted is dishonest.

Alice decides to cheat on her taxes. Alice is dishonest.

Bob, Carol, Ted, and Alice recognize their common philosophy in re: taxes, and choose to form a political party, called the United Front for Honesty in Government.

Lissener says, “Members of the part United Front for Honesty in Government are cheaters!”

Lissener is a bigot.

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Actually, lissener is only a bigot if he assumes everyone who belongs to the United Front for Honesty in Government is a tax cheat.

This would be especially true if the UFfHiG had ten million members, and lissener only knew of four who were tax cheats.

And it would be rather silly to oppose honesty in government because some of those who support it are hypocrites.

This is known as the genetic fallacy. The biggest fool in the world cannot make the sun shine by saying that it is raining.

Same as with conservative thought, or liberal for that matter. Clinton did not prove that all Democrats were liars, or that the principles of the Democratic party are invalid. Family values are valid or invalid quite apart from who Newt Gingrich marries. Jeffrey Dahmer and Juan Corona do not prove that homosexuality is morally wrong.

And so forth.

Regards,
Shodan

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Lissener firmly believes that Bob, Carol, Ted and Alice cheat on their taxes dishonestly, but is either unwilling or unable to prove it to others.

Lissener cannot accept any other explanation for their actions but dishonesty.

Lissener applies these beliefs to anyone who joins the United Front for Honesty in Governement, completely and without reservation.

Lissener is a bigot.

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This came out of your ass, and is therefore suspect, and tarnishes the credibility of the rest of your post.

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No.

Lissener is a bigot because he makes up lies about groups he disagrees with in order to justify his ignorance and hatred.

He’s a hypocritical scumbag because he knows better.

As a gay man he knows what it’s like to be villified with lies. He knows how hurtful it is.

That in spite of this is he willing to villify others makes him a scumbag of the first order.

He knows better. He simply doesn’t care.

He knows how bad it is. By engaging in this wllful bigoted villification, he gives credibility to the technique and thus hurts the things he cares about.

If he really gave a shit about gay rights, and prejudice he wouldn’t perpetuate such bigotry by emulating its tactics.

Lissener is a craven hypocrite and a crusader of convenience.

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So exactally what orfice do you pull your ideas out of that makes them so credible?

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It’s only what I’ve been picking up from the tone of your posts. You said back in the conservatism thread:

Except it’s a fallacy…re-read the part I bolded, you see that you’re defining conservatives based on your opinions. What chance does the new guy who wanders in, claims to be a conservative have? If he adhers to what you know of the conservative belief system, he’s either stupid or dishonest, and your own experiences point to dishonest. What if he doesn’t subscribe to the conservative belief system as you know it? What then? Is he still a conservative? How many people like him would it take to change your mind about conservatives? How many exceptions to the rule would you need?

It’s your definiton, I really don’t see how you can allow any leeway.
Your feelings on the matter seem incredibly strong. You even admit they may be preventing you from see Scylla’s side of the matter. That’s fine…I don’t want this thread to delve into the right or wrong of either side of that argument, that’s not the issue here. The issue is that you’ve taken the sum of your beliefs and use them to define a group to which millions of people associate with. Guilt by association means they really have no choice in your eyes. That’s the bigotry. Right or wrong, I’m just trying to make you see what you’re doing to them.

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Please read the original post that spawned this whole thing, then get back to me.

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Oh and Scylla, I lump you into that group of people who can suck my dick.

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Thanks. Somehow I think the old adage about biting off more than I can chew won’t be an issue, but I assure you I’ll put it to the test.

The more I think about it, the more I’m sure that you’re simply mirroring the techniques of bigotry you’ve heard used against gay people in your assault on conservatives.

The arguments you use really are identical to the worst of the homophobes.

“I’m not bigoted. I 've given a great deal of thought to the matter. It’s obvious that homosexuality is unnatural, so they must be choose to live their lives of sin.”

I just can’t figure out if you’re doing it deliberately, or if you really are just that blind and stupid that you don’t see it.

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lissener I actually like your posts and agree with most of your politics, thus I hope you will listen when I try to explain why I find it frightening that you consider all conservatives to be bigots and liars.

In America we only have two viable political parties with two broadly defined political philosophies behind them. Liberal and Conservative, Republican and Democrat. It doesn’t much matter how you express it. We all make choices about which philosophy most closely mirrors our own and we affiliate ourselves accordingly.

There is a reason why roughly half of all Americans define themselves on one side of the divide and the other half defines themselves as being on the other side. Reasonable, decent and intelligent people can legitimately differ. Each philosophy has to encompass a vast range of opinions and viewpoints or it will perish. You may believe that those who choose to define themselves as conservatives are mostly wrong, but you go much further than that. You choose to believe that roughly half of your countrymen are craven liars.

I am stunned at the narrowness and, well bigotry, of that position. In a heterogeneous population a diversity of opinions is to be expected. Most people hold contradictory positions, and all at the same time if you can believe it. A Liberal can side with the Conservatives on some issues, but still maintain an identity as a Liberal. I believe in unfettered free trade, an ideal which Conservatives have generally done a better job than Liberals of upholding. Does that make me a liar who isn’t worth listening to? If I pull four other conservative beliefs from among my skeletons in the closet have I crossed the line?

Your philisophy is so frightening because it is extreme and absolute. No conservative poster as far as I recall has ever posted a philosophy as extremist as yours, at least while being taken seriously. It seems to get excused by some posters here because you are on the side of the majority. Your beliefs do not allow for a diversity of opinion or for mutual respect among those who share different beliefs. I am being honest in saying that I find it disturbing.

I hope someday you might develop the ability to see shades of gray. The world is much more interesting when you develop the ability to try to understand the viewpoints of others. Neither conservatives or liberals are liars, charlatans, or your opressors. This board has people you from whom you might learn something. If you aggresively close yourselves off to them you are destined to remain ignorant.

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But that’s the problem. You seem to make the assumption that conservatives are conservatives because they are selfish and dishonest.

My grandfather was a conservative Republican. He was also a volunteer fireman and active in his town’s civic and charitable groups. He was also one of the most honest people I know. He didn’t lie, and he taught my dad and aunt that lying was one of the worst things someone could do. He was patient and tolerant.

My dad’s a liberal. He’s also honest, patient and tolerant, and he learned that from his father.

I don’t appreciate, and I don’t think my father would appreciate, hearing you imply that my grandfather was a liar and a hypocrite. i’m sorry you haven’t had any good relationships with conservatives. And if, upon learning that someone is a conservative, you decide that you already know all you need to know about them, and that they’re automatically bad people, I feel sorry for you.

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Please read the original post that spawned this and then get back to me.

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With all respect due to your grandfather, here is my reaction to your post:

One of my favorite people on the planet, a very dear friend for almost twenty years, is a bleeding heart conservative. She votes conservative, for many of the fiscal reasons that participants in these various threads have given. As a conservative, she believes that charity should come from the private sector and not from government. She is retired, and spends almost all of her waking moments working to find homes for stray pets, and various other charitable efforts.

I believe that she is fooling herself if she thinks that a totally non-governmental welfare system, supported by the work of private individuals, could possible handle the problems that we face today in our society. There are not nearly enough people like your grandfather or my friend for such a system to work. Insofar as they have devoted their time and energy to “doing their part” in service of such an ideal, I have tremendous respect for them. I also must honestly tell you that I think that, on a larger scale, they are naive.

So do I think of naivety as stupidity or dishonesty? Only in a good way: blind optimism can be a positive force, but I think it requires a certain amount of wishful thinking, which can be defined, when looked at in the worst possible light, as lying to oneself. With people like your grandfather and my friend, however, I personally would not describe it that way. Blind optimism accomplishes a great deal of good in this country–both my friend and your grandfather will leave the world a better place than they found it–but it cannot work on the larger scale.

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And for what it’s worth, I believe depending on the private sector for charity and welfare is more intrusive than a public welfare system: dumping it in the laps of a few individuals is FAR more demanding of them than a system which collectively chooses people to represent their wishes and implement their goals.

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Well, and I’m not arguing that my grandfather’s conservative beliefs were correct. I don’t think they were. I’m pretty generally a liberal. However, I think he was sincere in having them, and I think conservatives in general are sincere in their beliefs. They’re not conservative because they’re selfish or evil. They just have a set of experiences throughout their lives that have led them to believe that conservative views are really correct, just like you and I have had a set of experiences throughout our lives that have led us to believe that liberalism is correct.

I don’t think anyone here takes offense that you think conservative beliefs are wrong. But what your posts in this matter have seemed to suggest is that you think that it’s impossible for anyone to sincerely be a conservative, and that the only reason someone would be a conservative would be out of selfish motives. Now, maybe people are just misunderstanding you, and you don’t really believe that, but that’s what people get the impression you believe, and those people on here who are sincerely conservatives, who really believe in conservativism and who try to live moral lives, are upset that you’re questioning their motives.

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Please read the original post that spawned all of this and then get back to me.

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Lissener’s Original Post, or so I’m assuming. I’ve read it. Several times. Thuroughly chewed, swallowed, and digested. I still keep coming to the conclusion that your opinion of Conservatives is iron-clad. You’re not talking about pundits here, or particular politicians, you’re talking about Conservatives and “there’s always exceptions, of course,” isn’t going to cut it.

People like Captain Amazing tell you about their grandfather, and you admit respect…with the caveat that they’re still deluding themselves, if only in a good way. This is the first time since the entire conservatism discussion began that I’ve seen you back off from the “selfish and dishonest” stance, and even now it’s only a few steps.

I can’t point it out any clearer than this…you have an absolute definiton of conservatives and are either unwilling or unable to consider changing it. It doesn’t matter how long it took you to arrive at this conclusion, you seem to have reached the “obstinate and unreasoning” stage. You also haven’t shown a great deal of tolerance towrads opposing viewpoints.

You keep pointing people back to your original post, and it hasn’t changed anything. I respectfully submit you should rethink and rewrite that post over into the other thread in order to better explain your point of view and be more specific about who it applies to, because so far everyone seems to be missing your point.