I'm a member of Antifa

[rowrrbazzle]

@Little_Nemo

On a larger philosophical note, isn’t people thinking they are above the law what this movement is protesting against?

What’s your opinion on sanctuary cities?

[Irishman]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

FWIW, it may be helpful to address by name the people you believe are justifying this.

Well, for starters, there is Commeatus. Then there is septimus:

@ Commeatus and other antifas — Kudos! I don’t know whether your methods will succeed, but your self-sacrifice, courage and passion deserve our utmost respect and admiration.

Or MrDibble:

…worked for us. We never had a revolution, but violent protest was definitely a big factor in the end of Apartheid.

Or Dorjän:

Violence, riots, looting, burning police cars, etc. have a place.

BLM protests spurred by the latest killing at the hands of police were easily ignored, or if sympathized, forgotten about relatively quickly before. There’s even threads on this very board about how BLM is a has-been movement these days. Well, people are definitely paying attention, and the reaction on a global scale is definitely different now. Yes, violent protests are a small part of it, but you are deluding yourself if you think that violence or more importantly, the threat of violence and chaos has not been a catalyst for meaningful action.

And then there’s you:

Since the window-breaking began, Minneapolis has removed police from schools and is considering defunding the police department. LA is removing huge amounts of money from the police department. Obama has given a major speech in support of police reform and gotten lots of mayors to sign on to police reform.

Overthrowing Trump is what we’re trying for in November. Meanwhile, civil unrest is drawing international attention to police violence in the US. Unless you’re far more active in this issue than you’ve previously let on, your scolding of people who ARE trying to make change doesn’t carry much weight.

Do I need to go on?

For my part I’ve got no interest either in wagging my finger at “destruction of buses and stores” or at justifying it. I think that sometimes people respond to economic damage–whether that’s destruction of property, strikes, or other hits to the wallet–in a way that they don’t respond to protests that carry no inconvenience to them; and I think that these sorts of economic attacks sometimes bear fruit for the attackers.

My mind was changed in this regard by the brilliant book Blood Done Sign My Name, which I heavily recommend to anyone interested in the civil rights movement.

Whether the tactic works is a different question from whether it’s justified, and I think these two conversations are happening back-to-back and often getting confused with each other. I’m not interested in the “whether it’s justified” question while the “whether it works” question is still out.

“Whether it works” is a form of justification.

@Little_Nemo

Guys, I’m not writing a model penal code; I’m trying to state a general principle. I want the police to be subject to the law; not able to place themselves above the law.

I recognize that the police deal in circumstances that most people don’t. And sometimes they legitimately do need to use force.

I recognize that there are crimes that fall short of murder.

I even recognize that are legal system is not perfect.

But I think my principle of enforcing the law is a lot better than the idea of breaking windows until the problem stops. Or the idea of abolishing the police.

I can agree with you here. The principle is the police should be subject to the law, and subject to strict oversight, and subject to strong controls on their use of violence. We also need to address the systemic presumption about blacks and the law and how police respond to them. As well as the bigger picture of police violence in general - like that 75 year old white protestor or the aforementioned Daniel Shaver.

@alnath

Antifa seems to occupy higher moral ground, though. They act against anti-social organizations by helping to organize protests, rendering first aid, and using violence as a last resort. Actually I think they would make better neighbors than the Georgia vigilantes…

The underlined part is where I don’t know that your description is accurate. Black bloc protestors (Antifa or otherwise) have threatened people just going to show up and talk. They’ve shut down events by threats of violence. They have initiated violence against white supremacists marching. They fueled the feeling by the Unite the Right Charlottesville protestors that they needed to carry clubs and shields and wear protective gear when they marched. White supremacists weren’t marching like that until Antifa started physically attacking them on marches.

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-antifa

Today, antifa activists focus on harassing right wing extremists both online and in real life. Antifa is not a unified group; it is loose collection of local/regional groups and individuals. Their presence at a protest is intended to intimidate and dissuade racists, but the use of violent measures by some antifa against their adversaries can create a vicious, self-defeating cycle of attacks, counter-attacks and blame.

[snip]

Another concern is the misapplication of the label “antifa” to include all counter-protesters, rather than limiting it to those who proactively seek physical confrontations with their perceived fascist adversaries. It is critical to understand how antifa fit within the larger counter-protest efforts. Doing so allows law enforcement to focus their resources on the minority who engage in violence without curtailing the civil rights of the majority of peaceful individuals who just want their voices to be heard.

All forms of antifa violence are problematic. Additionally, violence plays into the “victimhood” narrative of white supremacists and other right-wing extremists and can even be used for recruiting purposes. Images of these “free speech” protesters being beaten by black-clad and bandana-masked antifa provide right wing extremists with a powerful propaganda tool.

[Snip]

While some antifa use their fists, other violent tactics include throwing projectiles, including bricks, crowbars, homemade slingshots, metal chains, water bottles, and balloons filled with urine and feces. They have deployed noxious gases, pushed through police barricades, and attempted to exploit any perceived weakness in law enforcement presence.

Away from rallies, they also engage in “doxxing,” exposing their adversaries’ identities, addresses, jobs and other private information. This can lead to their opponents being harassed or losing their jobs, among other consequences. Members of the alt right and other right wing extremists have responded with their own doxxing campaigns, and by perpetuating hateful and violent narratives using fake “antifa” social media accounts.
[/quote]

Review | The history, theory and contradictions of antifa

Antifa tactics include “no platforming,” i.e., denying their targets the opportunity to speak out in public; obstructing their events and defacing their propaganda; and, when antifa activists deem it necessary, deploying violence to deter them. In this setting, the First Amendment is a second-order concern. “In my opinion, ‘no platforming’ fascists often infringes upon their speech,” Bray admits, “but this infringement is justified for its role in the political struggle against fascism.”

Trump Supporter: 'He Called For Unity, I Never Saw Obama Call For Unity'

Antifa means “anti-fascist.” It’s a kind of catch-all name for far-left students and anarchists who often stage counterprotests in cities where far-right conservatives march or stage rallies. And their approach is confrontational. In Charlottesville, Antifa protesters chanted that people should “punch a Nazi in the mouth.”

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/what-is-antifa-trnd/index.html

Modern-day Antifa members have become more active in making themselves known at public rallies and within the progressive movement, says Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at California State University, San Bernardino.

“What they’re trying to do now is not only become prominent through violence at these high-profile rallies, but also to reach out through small meetings and through social networking to cultivate disenfranchised progressives who heretofore were peaceful,” Levin said.

The group is known for causing damage to property during protests. In Berkeley, black-clad protesters wearing masks threw Molotov cocktails and smashed windows at the student union center where the Yiannopoulos event was to be held.

[Aji_de_Gallina]

Antifa is anti-fascist in the same way that the Berlin Wall was the anti-fascist Protection Rampart.
Also, their definition of fascist is “people we don’t like.”
Finally, their only weapon is violence, everything else is extra.

[GIGObuster]

@Aji_de_Gallina

Antifa is anti-fascist in the same way that the Berlin Wall was the anti-fascist Protection Rampart.
Also, their definition of fascist is “people we don’t like.”
Finally, their only weapon is violence, everything else is extra.

It is more likely that the accusations do not fit reality:

Activists Intimidated by FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force

“What the JTTF is doing is shocking, but we saw this happen before during the McCarthy era, when the FBI and other various agencies investigated activists with the purpose of discouraging or chilling free speech,” said Will York, an attorney who
specializes in free speech cases and is a founding member of the National Lawyers Guild’s Nashville chapter. “If the movement for police reform and racial justice has legs in Cookeville, Tennessee, then it clearly has touched a deep nerve in this country. Federal and local police agencies trying to counter that momentum are likely to use these tactics to make activists think twice about organizing such an event again, especially in rural communities.”

Eli Anderson, a 19-year-old college student on summer break back home in Cookeville, decided to organize an impromptu Black Lives Matter rally in the Cookeville public square on Tuesday, June 2. A little after 3 p.m., Anderson and his friends announced on their Instagram stories that there would be a peaceful protest in the city square at 5 p.m. A friend picked Anderson up at 4:30 p.m. to head to the rally when he got a call from his mother saying, “The FBI is here and I don’t know what is happening.”

Anderson rushed home. By the time he got there, the two agents were gone and his mother was in a state of panic. She told Eli they had flashed FBI credentials.

“The agents told her they had been monitoring my social media and believed that I might have information about antifa coming to town,” Anderson said. “I’m like, ‘What the fuck is antifa?’ I had never even heard of it before.”

The next night, on the evening of Wednesday, June 3, Mackenzie Randall, a 21-year-old electrical engineering major at Tennessee Tech University, was startled when two JTTF agents showed up to her apartment unannounced.

The agents told Randall they wanted to talk her about her social media posts offering to help provide transportation to the local Black Lives Matter protest set for that Saturday. Randall let the agents into her home, where they began questioning her about, in her words, “terrorist organizations trying to come into the peaceful protests in Cookeville.”

“He asked me if I knew anyone in antifa or had heard anything about antifa coming to Cookeville,” Randall said. The agents also mentioned private posts Randall had made on her own Facebook page, which could only be seen by her Facebook friends.

“They were very intimidating,” she said. The FBI did not respond to request for comment. One of the JTTF officers who interviewed Katy, Randall, and Smith is a deputy for the Putnam County Sheriff’s Office. The sheriff’s office declined to comment for this story.

[RaftPeople]

Regarding effectiveness of violent vs non-violent protests, here is some science on the matter:

Agenda Seeding: How 1960s Black Protests Moved Elites, Public Opinion and...

Summary of conclusions by the author Omar Wasow:
Early 60’s were primarily non-violent protests that shocked the public due to poor treatment by authorities, resulting in 1964 civil rights act.

Mid to late 60’s protests increased in violence and pushed some groups of the public towards a law and order position that contributed to the election of Nixon instead of Humphrey (lead author of civil rights act).
“For subordinate groups in democratic polities, though, tactics matter. An “eye for an eye” in response to violent repression may be moral, but this research suggests it may not be strategic.”

[Irishman]

I’m troubled by the government, especially under Bill Barr and President Trump, using antifa as cover for intimidating legitimate protests.

I’m also troubled by antifascists using violence as their means of garnering attention.

I have no problem with marching en masse with protestors against a white supremacist group, and being ready to step in to stop intimidation and violence against counter-protestors.

I am troubled by initiating physical attacks against white supremacist groups.

I am for peaceful protests against police violence and systemic racial oppression. I am supportive of some civil disobedience measures to garner visibility. I am opposed to damaging property and looting in the name of a good cause. I am strongly opposed to violence as a means to protest police violence.