I don’t think this will be particularly controversial but here we go. I think there have been times when Antifa has done damage to people and property that goes beyond the mere clashes with the white nationalists. They don’t do the anti-fascist message any favors by wrecking private property (setting fires and such). All that does is give the right-wing propagandists (Hannity et al.) ammunition to discredit them. This in turn gives the fascists in America more room to gain ground. I feel like as they are on the right side of history, they need to take more care in not tarnishing their name. Now, I think they have every right to act in self-defense, so I’m not talking about that.
Antifa is a sub-sub-sub group of those who embrace liberal ideals. Of course their violence is to be condemned. Why do you ask?
And for the record, Daesh (ISIS) is a sub-sub-sub group of those who adhere to Islamic beliefs. Muslims condemn their violence too.
Fred Phelps needs condemning too. He’s a Christian.
Another poster brought up that on the SDMB the needless violence of antifa is never condemned. I wanted to condemn it and see if there was anybody who was pro-antifa violence (outside of self defense). I happen to think almost all violence should be condemned (outside of legitimate self defense or defense of others), and that would include when antifa gets stupid. In particular, as I stated in my OP, I feel like it is counterproductive at stopping American fascists.
But thats how right-wing propagandists work. They take anything anyone has done and uses it as ammunition to discredit everyone. If we accept the narrative that right-wing propagandists produce then where does that leave us? No advocating for gun control because it gives right-wing propagandists ammunition to discredit them. No calls for universal healthcare because it gives right-wing propagandists ammunition to discredit them.
Nope. Accepting their narrative gives the facists room to gain ground. Letting the facists in America gain ground lets them gain ground.
My thoughts?
A few years ago nobody knew who or what the fuck antifa was. That changed when the administration and its surrogates started to use the word antifa in its propaganda. Its like MS-13. Are they really a problem? Is antifa something that is so big that local law enforcement can’t take care of it?
If antifa is a problem then make a case that it is. Because I would suggest to you that the entire case that antifa needs to be dealt with is one that has been entirely created out of thin air.
Look at the wiki article.
“Notable street protests and violence”: the first one is in February 2017. And nothing looks any worse than what you get at the end of a major hockey game.
I think that Antifa is more likely to create Fascists than to battle it. People are hardwired to want to duke it out against rival gangs, so the creation and expansion of Antifa will cause the groups they attack to swell in size, as they recruit more people onto their side. And membership in these groups will drive them both towards more extreme positions, and reduced willingness to compromise, listen to outside views, or other be reasonable.
There is no great fascist force in the US. Antifa are just morons attracting rival morons into violence.
I have no idea, but apparently they burnt some guy’s limo on Inauguration Day. I want to say that doing that was wrong.
No idea, see above.
I agree, since we know the right-wing propagandist will lie, the worst thing we can do is give them even a slice of truth to use to their advantage.
I would say I’m very unlikely to fall for the propaganda since I’m not a alt-right moron. Far, far, far from it. I’m a (slightly) right-wing Canadian, that makes me like an anarcho-communist or something on the US scale.
While we’re on the subject, I would like to condemn the senseless rioting that sometimes occurs after sporting events. Such violence is wrong.
Is that the best you’ve got? They apparently burnt down one car?
Nobody is stopping you from saying “burning a car is wrong.”
Burning some guy’s limo on Inauguration Day is wrong!
There. I’ve said it! You can say it too if you like.
This is your thread. I think I’ve done more research into this than you have. If you honestly have no idea how big the scale of the problem is then what is it we are doing here?
I don’t agree. The worst thing we can do is worry about “giving them even a slice of truth.” Everything we do will feed their narrative. So don’t worry about things that are beyond our control.
I hate to say it: but you already have. This thread wouldn’t exist if you hadn’t have fallen for the propaganda. You can’t even quantify the scale of the problem. So why are we here?
I highlighted a couple of points: they are identified as “protesters”, not “Antifa”; and I am not aware of Antifa using Anarchy symbology. So attaching this incident to Antifa’s rap sheet may be incorrect. We have a small but robust contingent of Anarcho-Nihilists in the US who are eager to use whatever opportunity availed them to sow destruction and mayhem.
Do they have the right to act in self defense against pre-emptive violence by agents of the State? i.e. if police throw the first blows in response to non-violent protest, do they then have the right to fight back?
There’s a point where violence and subversion are justified in response to society going in a very bad direction. Where this point is exactly and which direction is “bad” is going to be highly subjective. I don’t believe the current violence is justified. But there might be a point where it would be.
Also, maybe I’m mistaken, but it seems to me that antifa’s violence has ben pointed at several times in the past on this board.
I think it is without doubt that some protesters against the far-right wing will resort to violence. That’s just how people are. Pretty much any demonstration of competing mindsets will result in violence and not all of it will be sparked by those with the handy label of “fascist”.
And of course that should be condemned, because it isn’t helpful to the cause of those peacefully protesting and, whether fair or not, it plays into the hands of the other side. We shouldn’t sink to their level and loudly and strongly condemn those who do it in the name of our causes.
How often it happens is irrelevant, if it happens at all it provides ammo for the other side and gives at least one example which the tangerine fuck-nut in chief can drag into his idiotic equivalences and to which the far-right can point and whine.
I have noticed a certain attitude among some Facebookers of the “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” sort, to which I would like to point out that ISIS and al-Qaeda are mortal enemies of each other and they’re both still bad.
Yes, antifa’s violence has been pointed out, but it is often soft soaped. “violence is wrong. . .but what if . . ?”
Defending yourself is not violence. Bringing bricks and bats to a rally and provoking the other side to violence is not defending yourself. Punching a white supremacist in the mouth is not defending yourself. Sending threats of violent disruption to venues if certain people are allowed to speak is not defending yourself. Being violent before they get a chance to is not defending yourself.
And it doesn’t matter that these are not common events, they ARE HAPPENING! and they are happening in the name of the American people. and it should be denounced in no uncertain terms.
And I disagree, wholeheartedly with your first sentiment. Violence is never justified as a response even if you believe that society is going bad. The Chicago police used violence against student protesters and the national guard shot at students because they believed that society was going bad. Police forces across the nation turned fire hoses and sicked dogs on blacks because they thought society was going bad. Indeed, the KKK was founded and uses violence because they believed society was going bad.
America has a long history of using violence to try and correct “social ills” and it has always been a mistake. . .why would the next time be any different?
The problem with leftist violence is that they give the right an excuse to create a security state. Nothing will be achieved through acts of violence and vandalism.
Having said that, let’s not act as though white supremacists are hapless victims just minding their own business; they’re begging for violence just as much as antifa are. What antifa don’t realize is that they’re fueling extremists when they engage violently; they’re giving the terrorists what they want, which is attention and the ability to claim high ground.
I repeatedly hear people condemning Antifa and violence that they attribute to Antifa. But Antifa is not a violent organization. The criticisms made against Antifa are like the criticisms made against Dungeon & Dragons in the 80s: a made-up moral panic. Sure, you could find some D&D players that were witches, or satanists, or even murderers, but none of those things were characteristic of most D&D players. D&D was a bunch of nerds that got together to do a nerdy thing. Antifa is also a bunch of nerds that get together to do a nerdy thing. They research hate-groups, with the goal of pointing at individual members of those groups and saying “Look everybody, that dude is a nazi.” A secondary goal is to be able to call up the exit 6 Holiday Inn, and say “Those dudes renting out the ballroom on Saturday are nazis, you should cancel their reservation.”
Do any amount of research on Antifa, and those two things account for 90% of their actions. And it is working. Now, nazis made famous by Antifa can’t go to the gym. Nazis made famous by Antifa are telling their followers to not go to public nazi rallies, because it will ruin their lives. Antifa will tell their bosses, their deans, their moms, that they are nazis, and they will get fired, expelled, and kicked out of the house.
And the best part is, as I was taught by Indiana Jones, James Bond, and Col. Hogan: Nazis are always acceptable targets. I have no sympathy for any nazi whose life was destroyed by Antifa.
For any group one could name, there is a “sub sub sub group” that acts especially badly, and can be waved off by those putatively on the same side as representing a tiny minority not worthy of consideration.
What matters most is how the vast majority respond to the small minority of sleazebags. If there’s quick and confident condemnation and shunning of those who employ threats, violence and other criminal behavior (as opposed to dismissal of any problem and chants of You Guys Do It Too), then the other side is denied outrage fuel.
