Does it matter who fired the first shot? Will history remember or care?
On both ends of the political spectrum, peaceful protests give way to violent clashes. These are rarely denounced by people harboring the same ideology, though all involved understand the risks. There is undoubtedly some number of people in their respective groups who hope for – or even provoke – escalation in order to spur more action and coverage.
Certainly Heather Heyer’s death brought sympathy where black bodies tried and failed; at the same time, hardline Trumpers blame antifa, lack of police intervention, and an exile from the park for the loss of life.
It’s as if both sides are torn between condemning violence and using it as a tool to attack the other. “They started it. It’s just self defense now.”
Thoughts?
Do ideologies matter, or is violence to be universally condemned? Once violence erupts, as it has, should citizens stand back and cool down, or step in and fan the flames for their respective causes?
Is it fair to compare American white supremacists to Nazis, and if so, should they be engaged and attacked as WWII Nazis were?
If you have fascists and anti-fascists, one can’t exist in the vacuum without the other. So, hey, get rid of the fascists and it seems like the problem should solve itself without all the need for finger pointing.
Well, going forward, whenever anyone cries about Antifa, I’m going to place them on the side of the fascists, nazis and alt-right racists.
Let’s not forget that in most cases, including Malheur, the Bundy Ranch and YES, in Charlottesville, the right wing fascists showed up armed to the teeth. They’ll get no sympathy from me because someone opposed to their ideology punched them in the teeth.
Someday the fascists won’t just be carrying those weapons, they’ll be using them. The time to stand up and be counted to oppose them is now, before they start shooting.
I live near Charlottesville and I didn’t go anywhere near on Saturday because it was pretty obvious it wasn’t going to be pretty. Very sorry that a person was killed and many others injured.
There is no easy answer but I think there is plenty of blame to go around for how this turned out. The alt-right accepted the Nazis and white supremacists which validated what the left had been accusing them of all along. Nazis hate non-whites, Antifa hate Nazis, counter-protesters tried to block the rally, there were too many people in a small space, violence ensued. Both sides came ready for a fight with soda cans filled with concrete, bottles filled with urine, sticks, and firearms. I’m just grateful the firearms weren’t used.
Now granted Cville police aren’t used to this sort of thing at all, but the police let people beat on each other for almost 2 hours before declaring an unlawful assembly. The street the car drove down shouldn’t have even been open, it is a one-way street that crosses a pedestrian mall and only ends at Market Street, which is the street the park is on. Maybe the guy drove through barricades, I guess more information will come out.
The media gave the Nazis the attention and national coverage they couldn’t get any other way, even if they tried to pay for it newspapers and TV wouldn’t have accepted their ads.
Charlottesville didn’t deserve this mess, it is a friendly and beautiful city with lots of trees, surrounded by mountains, rolling hills, and pastures. Yes removing the statues is controversial but it should be a local matter not a national one. I just hope people didn’t bring their kids to this melee.
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” - Sun Tzu
Disclaimer: I’m well aware that discussing some of the historical opposition groups is likely to put me on the side of the “Nazi sympathizers” in the minds of some. I think this is important enough, I will take that. I have no problem labeling Nazis as vile and deplorable fucksticks. They are clearly the black hatted bad guys. Life isn’t a Hollywood movie, though. Not everyone else wears a white hat. Not every well intentioned action against the Nazi-fucksticks is useful or even IMO ethically acceptable. People are understandably raw and angry at this point. If you aren’t at the point where you can manage those strong emotions to take a dispassionate look that includes actions of the extremist left, I encourage you to skip to the next post.
One of the things I’ve been surprised by in the build up to Charlottesville and the aftermath, is the general ignorance about the history of clashes around the relatively common rallies by white supremacist/white separatist groups. The ADL predicted this to be the biggest demonstration in at least a decade (mostly they don’t break 100 on the white supremacist side.) It displayed a willingness of groups that frequently don’t combine efforts to come together in our current environment. They clearly united a decent chunk of the right’s violent extremists to hit the numbers involved. A large number of the Nazis came prepared and equipped to fight. We’re pretty clearly at a point of escalating tensions and violence. It’s worse than it has been but it didn’t just spring up out of nowhere. We ignore the history of rally and counter demonstration leading to this point at society’s peril IMO.
A few links from Mother Jones covering the history in question from the extreme left side, but covering their Nazi opposition as well:
IMO an attempt to summarize does a disservice to fighting ignorance in this case. I won’t do a very good job of summarizing what are already mostly summations. The Mother Jones cites do provide a background that the last week’s discussions are mostly lacking IME.
The most recent history piece in the MJ cites focuses more on the groups opposing the Nazis. That recent alt-right piece really does need addressing better. Southern Poverty law Center provides a good look at where the current mix of groups dubbed the Alt-Right are at now (to include leaders, movement tactics, and discussion of ideologies that underlie their less direct messaging) in “The Alt-Right on Campus: What Students Need to Know”
The SPLC student guide does also provide some interesting takes on how to oppose the Alt-Right without simply escalating the decades long history of violent confrontations at these events. It’s worth a read just for that by those looking to become more actively engaged or wanting to inform themselves about different proposals for a way forward.
A safety reminder, since I bring up becoming more actively engaged, if your exposure to the activist left hasn’t been that strong pay attention to the groups that state they operate using a “diversity of tactics.” That’s the more recent euphemism among groups that do not profess an adherence to Ghandian non-violence. Participating with them may increase your risk of being involved in a violent confrontation and/or arrested.
An important other piece of knowing the Alt-right/Nazi fucksticks that I don’t see come up often is greenwashing nativism. It’s one of the areas, outside demonstrations or the SPLC link about campus focus, where the white nationalists are trying to expand their influence in more recent years. They are wrapping xenopobic and anti-immigration centric messaging in the language of the ecologically focused activist left. It’s worth paying attention to that messaging as it seeks to subvert the activist left.
It’s not enough to simply state opposition to Nazis. How we oppose them matters. It matters a lot. Ineffective opposition doesn’t reduce the threat and wastes effort. Counterproductive opposition can either strengthen them or increase the social costs that result. Kneejerk reactions made in haste now, when emotions are heated, run a good chance of being ineffective, counterproductive, or both. A good understanding of the environment and the players is important, IMO, before we start asking ourselves and our communities “What do we do about the Nazi fucksticks?”
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.” - Sun Tzu
That makes them guilty of being stupid, not evil. Not that I’m defending ANTIFA, most of them are a bunch of morons. But let’s face is, this is the kind of things most white supremacists want to happen, and they plan on it. They’re scary motherfuckers. While I agree, don’t poke a hornet’s nest, that doesn’t mean they’re equally at fault.
I was disappointed in the police until I heard their press conference. They had planned to keep them separated with a specific route for the klan to take into the park. The klan didn’t follow the plan and chaos ensued.