Um, having read post #244, let me amend that to “Johanna is annoyed by the term.”
I think we’re very used to using the word “offended” in this kind of situation. But FWIW, my understanding was that Johanna wasn’t getting all huffy and indignant and combative, just that it bothers her and she wishes people wouldn’t use “you guys” to refer to groups she’s in.
We’ve seen how Beck starts with “offended” and immediately extrapolates that to “screaming.” Give me a break.
When wounded, one screams.
When annoyed, one grumbles.
I am grumbling. Anything not clear about that?
Well, I get that. I’m not grumbling at individual persons. I’m just grumbling at the overall situation that we’ve gotten ourselves into.
I grew up in the 70s in the Boston area and guys and you guys were gender neutral and I still use them.
I think the point about regionalisms is a good one. Most of my local childhood culture and language has disappeared and gentrification is driving things out even faster now. People who grew up here can’t afford to stay here. So when someone comes along and tries to take away another thing that never bothered anybody before it chafes. I never heard a single complaint about you guys until maybe a few years ago.
They tried to claim the word “jimmies” (as in ice cream sprinkles) is racist (there is no evidence for this) and take that away from us too.
I was trying to ask a sincere question, which was how you reacted to women who use the term “guys” to refer to other women, and whether you let them know that the term bothers you.
If you want old men like me to empathize with you and maybe try to be more careful about how we speak, a little less sarcastic a response to an innocent question would be appreciated.
And for the record, I am neither Southern, nor a hick and I do use the term “y’all” frequently. That kind of stereotyping doesn’t serve you well.
I had already given the sincere answer to that in my OP.
Who was that addressed to? I never said anything of the sort.
I apologize for that.
I thought since you went to the trouble of starting a thread and a poll you were a bit more than annoyed.
If I misconstued your meaning, its all my fault.
My apologies. After reviewing the thread I see that remark should have been directed to @needscoffee.
I don’t understand why calling women ladies is bad. I’m not contesting it, everyone else says so, well so be it. I’ll go along with that. Even though I can’t help wondering why there’s no problem saying gentlemen, but ladies is somehow bad. OK, if you say so.
So far we’ve learned:
We can’t say women.
We can’t say ladies.
We can’t say gals.
We can’t say womenfolk by the transitive property, because we’ve already ruled out women.
We’re stuck saying “There exists no acceptable word for addressing women except guys. Please ignore all the instances in which it’s exclusively male.”
What does all that say about women’s status in this world?
nm…meant to post more
I am justifying by saying that the word Guy is no Gender neutral. But I will listen if anyone says some word or term is something they prefer not to be used towards them.
Right, that is the way to go.
Yes, and I know a woman who also doesnt like that term. She especially gets riled if someone says “men” and then"females’. “Male & female” is okay, men & woman- sure. But NOT Men and females. So I listen and try not to use it that way,
I concur- unless someone has asked me not to.
Yes, but if i am referring to a group that I know includes both I use “waitstaff”.
A reasonable compromise.
Personally, I am not happy about the term “white” as applied to me. I am a rather dark olive skinned, with brown hair (what’s left that isnt grey) and brown eyed person. If I get a bit of sun i am as dark as most hispanics- and somehow they arent considered 'white" which kinda annoys me.
But you know, if some clerk checks the box “white” for me, I dont complain.
Anyone can have a pet peeve, that’s just being human.
When we were in HIgh School, one shop teacher (all male class) called us all boys. A couple of the black students objected. We talked it over, and the teacher agreed not to call out a single one of us as “Boy”, and the black students withdrew their objections about the group being called boys.
I will use either, but now I am careful about “females” unless i also use "males. Gals? maybe.
Girls? Only like if “the girls in the steno poll” like “the boys in the band”.
Yeah, that unparallel type of construction is particularly jarring, but the problem, at least to me, with the words “male” and “female” instead of “men” and “women” is the words sound so clinical to me. Nobody had to tell me to avoid them – they just sound “off” and depersonalized. A “male” and “female” don’t even have to be human. You can talk about the male of a species and the such. The words don’t sound natural to me when talking about people in a conversational manner. Like I said, clinical, scientific, cold is what they connote to me.
I believe using the singular ‘boy’ is best avoided due to its potential racist undertones—except in a clear father-to-son context. However, the plural ‘boys’ is generally acceptable in all other situations.
I concur. But in this case a nice compromise was reached.
Speaking of shop teachers, that reminds me of my middle school woodshop instructor. Every week, he held a classroom meeting where he’d fire off woodworking questions at us. If you answered incorrectly, you had to march to the front of the class and belt out a made-up song—in a squeaky falsetto—about the topic you flubbed. He seemed convinced that singing in a ‘feminine’ voice was the ultimate humiliation for a boy, so I prayed like crazy not to mess up.
Alas, the prayer went unanswered. To this day—almost 6 decades later, I can still sing the ridiculous ditty I composed about ten-penny nails!
I posted in the pit thread that this one branched out of.
I’m a woman, and I’m also mildly annoyed by the use of “guys” to include me.
Not profoundly offended, not screaming in rage, not going to bite your head off for using it, but, if you actually ask me, it’s my preference that you don’t.
Although, I have a colleague who tries to be inclusive by writing emails that start “hi guys and lady” (I’m the only woman in that team) and that’s much more irritating to me. I’ll settle for being included in “guys”…only even this, I haven’t bothered to ask him to stop.
It’s like being annoyed at dropping your pen, vs being annoyed at dropping your pen twice. Not going to rage at anyone all day about it, but yeah, I’d rather that not happen.
I’m probably included in “guys” pretty often and I don’t notice because I’m thinking about other stuff or just not paying attention. I probably use it sometimes, because it’s very common on the culture I’ve lived my life in. Habits are hard to break. But I’ve thought about it, and I don’t really like it, and I know others don’t like it, so I try to avoid using it. And, if asked, I’ll share my preference.
I noticed a lot of people acknowledge that they won’t use it “if I know it bothers someone”. Thing is, I think most people it may bother are like me; not gonna raise a stink, but we’d tell you if you asked. But since people don’t really ask, the annoyance persists (like the pen that rolls off the table often, because the table isn’t level …).
I find that it’s actually pretty easy to avoid saying it. I don’t feel the need to label a group before addressing it. Most sentences work out fine if you just drop it, and once in a while you maybe have to just restructure your sentence. In the “table” scenario above, I wouldn’t address a table as “hey ladies”, I’d just say “hey” or “excuse me” to get their attention.
I have never encountered the manufactured scenario where someone addresses a group as “guys” and the group is confused whether or not the speaker is referring to everyone or just the men. Because context.
In the associated poll to this thread, 6 women have said they don’t like it but don’t say anything, and none have voted that they would speak up.
Yes. I think almost everyone does. Most of us also direct micro-friendliness at random strangers, too.
I missed the poll, I haven’t seen the results.
It’s not really worth speaking up about, in most cases. You may get any sort of response, ranging from “oh, I never thought about that, I’ll try to avoid using it” to “who the fuck are you to tell me how to speak” and really, it’s just not worth the bother. That doesn’t mean it isn’t annoying, though!