Douglas Hofstadter wrote that he disliked “guys” as a gender-neutral term. He related this story:
I was arguing with one woman about this, and she kept on saying, “It may have retained some male flavor for you, but it has none in most people’s usage.” I wasn’t convinced, but nothing I could think of to say would budge her from her position. However, fortune proved to be on my side, because, in a last-ditch attempt to convince me, she said, “Why, I’ve even heard guys use it to refer to a bunch of women!”
I assume no one reading this doesn’t understand that in the last sentence, she used “guys” to mean “males”. So there is still some sense that “guy” can be used to mean “male person”, even though in my experience it is often used in a gender-neutral way. I think there is some nuance here, and whether it is really a gender-neutral word depends on context and the relationship between the speaker and their audience.
I kept addressing members of the Junior League as you guys. As in, “You guys have done a lot of good work in the area over the years.” I didn’t realize what I was doing until the third time I referred to them as guys and I apologized. I don’t think it’s at all bad to address a mixed crowd as guys.
I feel as though no matter what choice we make someone is going to be unhappy. If I address a crowd as “ladies & gentleman” I imagine there are going to be people unhappy about that. What about non-binary people? What about women who consider lady to be derogatory (they exist)?While I don’t mean to sound insensitive, how much effort do the rest of us need to make to accommodate them? For me, I need to look at everything on a case by case basis to decide.
I’m certainly not going to tell you what you should and shouldn’t be annoyed with. I think all of us find things annoying that a lot of other people are probably fine with. It sounds to me like you handle it like an adult.
If someone doesn’t like something and refuses to let me know about it I can’t read minds.
I deal with confrontation all the time and it doesn’t have to be unpleasant. People need to learn to speak up if they are uncomfortable with things. It’s hard but I think it’s a necessary skill to develop.
Most of the time I use you all or y’all because I’ve desperately tried to eliminate yinz from my vocabulary lol.
Yinz does still leech out at times but it’s mostly dormant.
No, you shouldn’t be expected to read minds. But, if you become aware that some women are quietly uncomfortable with being called “guys,” does it give you a moment’s pause about using it that way?
And, in case you haven’t realized, an awful lot of people are very uncomfortable with, or scared of, any kind of confrontation.
I hear women call each other guys and dudes a lot. My daughters have been active in sports, and it’s pretty common for the athletes to commonly refer to each other as guys, including the female coach addressing the team. It’s stuff like “Guys, I’m open” and “Guys, listen up”. They also use it when addressing their mixed gender friend group (e.g. Guys, help me clean up). I can certainly understand how some people would be offended to be called “guy” or “dude”, but it doesn’t seem like most women are offended by it. I would assume that if someone was offended by the term, they would not use the term themselves. As for me, I don’t use those words because there are other words that work and won’t have the same chance to offend. Also, there is some ambiguity in mixed gender groups when using the term. For instance, it’s not clear what is meant by something like “Hey, you guys in the back, come sit up front.” It’s not clear if the person is asking for everyone in the back to come up front, or if it’s just the men in the back that the person wants. I’d rather say something like “Can those of you in the back come up front” or “Can the men in the back come up front” to avoid the ambiguity.
I don’t think anyone can argue that “guys” is truly a non-gendered word. Best case, it’s a word that can be used in non-gendered contexts.
So what unconscious damage is done to girls and women to be included in a term that means “male” in other contexts? Like microaggressions, it’s microdamage that has no real impact by itself. But it’s just one more thing women face every day that subtly tells them they are less.
I’m not surprised that 50+ year olds are ok with it after a life of experience that says this is just the way things are. I’m saddened that high school girls are already ok with it, but I guess I’m not surprised.
I know what you mean. “Jap” was just a shortening of Japanese and saved time. Then, Pearl Harbor happened. Internment camps happened. The word became a term of hatred. The only thing to do was stop using it.
People from Khazakstan are Khazaki. People from Afghanistan are Afghani. People from Pakistan are no longer referred to as Paki because bigots have made that a term of hatred.
Female is technically correct. But I have only heard it used by Ferenghi and incels.
Yeah, I’ve heard “female” to be problematic from more women than I have “guys.” I pretty much only use “female” as a noun in medical contexts or, I dunno, the description of a suspect.
She’s fine with woman, women, etc., etc., it’s just female in particular grates on her because of alpha male incel types who use the word. I suppose I could test the waters with toots, dame, and bird the next time I see her and see if any of those fly.
I was seriously bothered by exactly that when I was about six.
Which was, admittedly, quite a long time ago.
And some people who aren’t just don’t want to spend all their time confronting, and already had their share of it that day or are expecting to do so later.
I have learned something because of this and, having just checked in the mirror, I can say with certainty that it is no skin off my nose. Learning is just that simple, it seems.
It really is a simple thing. And it’s not like she told me not to use the word, she just said something like, “Ewwwww! When people use that word I just think of incels and Ferrengi.” This was within the last few months and I can’t even remember the context of how I used female.
