Again, I am trying to explain the Catholic POV. Some doctors practice specifically for a Catholic clientele, and they practice according to Catholic teaching. I am just glad that these Catholics have a place to go.
I know. I think the basic disconnect we’re having, is that I don’t understand why it should matter whether or not he’s Catholic so long as he’s good at what he does and is respectful of your wishes. I’m not trying to be obnoxious or intentionally obtuse. I’m sincerely interested as to why it should matter. I’m uncomfortable with the idea of religion having any sway in medical decisions because it’s so arbitrary. If a doctor allows his religion to color his clinical decisions, he may face conflicts of interest. Which does he allow to come first? Religion or medicine? If the answer is religion, then he may be putting his faith before his patients’ well being. I hope you can understand my concern in this.
Yes. I can completely understand it. However, I think you are just not getting what these things mean to a Catholic. I do realize that you are a former Catholic, but not being a religious person, maybe there is a certain level on which you are just not getting it. I don’t mean this as an insult in any way, so please do not take it as one…I just mean that you are looking at medical care from practical, and not a religious POV.
I can’t necessarily explain the Catholic doctrine on medical issues, as I am not in any way qualified to do so. All I can try to do is explain about how deep-seated these beliefs are. They are NOT just “this is what feels right to me…others can do their own thing.” A Catholic might even believe that other religions are perfectly acceptable means to God, and that non-Catholics are just as welcome in heaven as Catholics are, etc. etc. But to a Catholic, these medical ethics are as basic in terms of MORALITY as “do not kill.” They are a moral code that is NOT just a matter of “well, I would not have an abortion, but it’s fine if others do so.” Catholics REALLY BELIEVE it is murder. Would you want to go to a doctor who commits murder? I use abortion as an example, because it is the most obvious and easiest example. However, all the medical ethics issues are seated in the same moral place as the abhorrance for abortion.
In terms of it being arbitrary, what I was actually trying to point out in the first place is that a Catholic might want to go to a doctor, who practices according to Catholic teaching, precisely because it is NOT arbitrary. There are very specific guidelines about what is OK and what is not OK, and a Catholic patient may feel very reassured by going to a doctor who understands this.
Maureen (btw, Smith, nee’ Johnson, cf Time Enough for Love?), I’m not seeing what disconnect you have here. If you believe that a particular doctor had no problem with recommending something that you had good reason to consider a highly questionable treatment - say some kind of drug with real potential to damage a fetus when a woman is pregnant - wouldn’t you be highly inclined to avoid him in any circumstance? I mean, how much would you be able to trust this guy? How about if he had been convicted of murder? Yes, he’d probably still be a reasonably competent doctor, but would you feel comfortable going to him?
Catholics believe that abortion is murder. No ifs, ands, or buts; murder. Many believe that birth control is just as bad, and as has been pointed out already, doctors will routinely prescribe birth control pills for acne control. Is it so difficult to grasp the concept that a person who holds those beliefs would prefer to go to a physician who shares them?
This is what it comes down to (for me)–if these matters are vital to you, the pt–why not share them with the doc in question? If doc knows that BC is out of the question, then doc won’t prescribe them. S/he may well inform you that BC is the best treatment for XYZ, but is that not allowed-given the “discomfort” of the pt with the topic?
I don’t understand this. I completely understand wanting an MD who shares your lifeview, so to speak, but I don’t understand why this can only be a doc that is religious or shares your same religion. One of my OB’s wanted me to have an amnio–she pushed for it. I said no and said no again. That was the end of it. I drove that bus, as does every other pt here. If a pt was vegan, yet anemic, would only a Hindu doctor be less likely to suggest meat for the pt? No-the doc, no matter the religion, would recognize and accomodate the pt’s adherence to a meatless life, and provide other options. Simplistic example, but I think it’s adequate.
oy! - I see your point and agree with it. If a HCP has a strong feeling re a certain procedure or treatment modality, then of course that HCP should refuse to engage in such. I, personally, think that it is a failing of the HCP to not treat the pt, regardless, but as a general rule, that working principle has served health care well. We are not robots-we are people too, and if our clinical judgement is clouded by other issues, that can be problematic.
The devil is in the details, as Maureen pointed out. Often, the rural community has no feasible choice and a doc’s moral construct does hold sway. IMO, that is wrong.
Sarahfeena -to risk stating the obvious, many Catholics(most that I know) do indeed use birth control etc. Are there Catholics and then Catholics? How is a doctor to know? Not being snarky, just asking.
Yes, that one. 
The disconnect is that a questionable/risky clinical procedure and a religious belief are two different things. I understand that many people do not separate the two. You believe abortion is murder. I disagree, but I respect that belief and I would never force you (if you were female) to undergo that procedure. Ever. OTOH, a physician refusing to prescribe birth control meds to me (meds which I have used in the past without ill effect) based soleley on his religious belief, instead of in the best interest of his patient’s health and well being, is in direct conflict with medical ethics. As is performing a risky procedure that’s historically shown to have a low success rate without the patient’s permission. In both of those cases, you are removing a key element of healthcare; the patient’s will. You can advise, you can recommend, you must make sure the patient is as well informed as you can make them. But in the end, it is the patient who makes the final decisions. They are the ones who say “yes, I’m willing to take that risk” or “no, I want a more conservative treatment.” It just is not your place to decide for them. Implied consent is the only exception.
I can understand on an emotional level why it’s important you see a physician who shares your religious beliefs. But. His religious beliefs should have no bearing on the treatment he gives his patients.
It rubs me as prejudicial, is all. In my mind, it’s the same as saying “I won’t go to a Vietnamese doctor, because my dad was killed in Vietnam.” It isn’t a decision based on the physician’s qualifications or ability. That doctor may very well provide the best care for you, but you’re not willing to take that chance because he isn’t Christian enough for you.
None of my doctors have ever tried to proselitize. No doctor has ever withheld treatment to me based on religion, and as a matter of fact my Ob-Gyn (in a heavily-Catholic country) is open to birth control, sterilization on demand (most doctors her wouldn’t even consider it in my case because I have only one child) and as I learned second-hand would not have a problem terminating a pregnancy if the fetus had serious abnormalities (kinda iffy here since “abortion-on-demand” is illegal). An Ob-Gyn here who would refuse to prescribe birth control medication would be out of business tout suit. I
f a doctor ever tries to convert me there will be fur flying.
OK, I think here is where we might be having a little bit of a disconnect. I don’t actually think it would matter if the doctor wasn’t Catholic (at least not to the Church…individual people may feel differently). If there are any Catholics who care to back this up or refute it, that would be great, because I don’t know for sure. The important thing is not that the doc is Catholic per se, but that he or she practices according to Catholic doctrine. The ethics are not the mainstream in today’s society, however, so I think people some people might feel better about going to a doctor who IS Catholic, just to be sure. This being said, your point about there being different kinds of Catholics is well-taken. There are as many different ways of being Catholic as there are Catholics. BUT…if a Catholic cares about these things, and goes to a Doc who tells them that they practice according to Catholic teaching, then the patient and the Doc would know that they were on the same wavelength.
I’m sure there are doctors who are not Catholic, but practice at Catholic hospitals. In this case, they usually do have to follow hospital policy, which typically follows doctrine.
As far as the point about the doc practicing this way in general, vs. treating each patient according to his or her desire, you really have to understand the Catholic thinking. I have this problem whenever I discuss abortion with people who hold the pro-choice view. I don’t think that you REALLY understand, down deep, how thoroughly Catholics and other pro-lifers believe that it is murder. It’s not “kinda sorta” murder, or “like” murder. It IS murder…no different than if I shot someone in the head on the street. Maureen, your point about “I respect the belief, so I wouldn’t force you to have an abortion” just doesn’t address the way a pro-lifer feels about it. So, I will try to give a couple of illustrations:
First, think about if your doctor killed babies. Not abortions, but living, breathing, out-of-the-womb babies…whatever the reason. Say the parent didn’t want the baby anymore, so the doctor “puts it to sleep” like you would do a dog. Would you respect this doctor enough to go to this doctor for your care? Would you think, “well, I wouldn’t have the doctor kill my baby, but if that other parent wanted it, then that’s ok.” This is how a very religious Catholic feels about abortion.
Or, imagine that you found out your pediatrician molests children. But, only girl children, and you have a boy. Would you still take your child to that ped, knowing that your child was not in danger?
This is the best way I can think to explain it. I am sorry if the examples seem extreme, but that is the only way that I can think to get the point across.
Also, Maureen, your point about withholding possible options from a patient without his or her permission is a good one, but the thing is, a doctor who follows Catholic teaching doesn’t necessarily withhold information. The Catholic hospital in my town doesn’t do abortions, but they would certainly tell you where you could get one. And I don’t think there are very many doctors out there who treat patients according to doctrine, but the ones who do I’m sure have almost entirely Catholic clientele who know exactly what the doctor will & won’t do, and go to that doctor precisely for that reason. I can’t imagine in, say, an OB/Gyn practice like this, that a doctor wouldn’t say to a patient up front “we are a Catholic practice. We don’t write prescriptions for birth control, we don’t do abortions, we don’t do IVF,” and let the patient decide if it is the kind of practice for them. Most likely, it would be in the doc’s literature. If a patient decided to use that doc anyway, then had fertility problems, the doc would probably just refer them to a specialist, like most would do anyway.
I don’t know if this is going to help, but while any doctor may refuse on moral grounds to take part in an elective termination of a pregnancy, no doctor may refuse to perform an abortion if it is necessary to save the life of the mother.
That is, if a woman is dying in front of the doctor, and the only(or best) way to save her life is to perform an abortion immediately the doctor must do it. To refuse to do so for any reason is to be civilly liable for negligence, and criminally liable to manslaughter or negligent homicide should the woman die.
Similarly, if serious complications should develop while a colleague is performing a termination, and that colleague requires the help of another doctor, if the devoutly Catholic doctor is the only available physician, they *must * assist.
There are thus certain circumstances (admittedly very rare, but definitely known to happen) where even the most devoutly Catholic doctor may have to terminate a pregnancy or assist in such a procedure.
It is also malpractice for a doctor not to recommend terminating a pregnancy as an option, if it is in the best medical interest of the mother that the pregnancy should not continue. It is also malpractice to refuse to refer to a colleague who will perform the procedure.
Sarahfeena, I’m living in Ireland, a country where 95% of the population identifies as Catholic and termination of pregnancy is illegal except when the life of the mother is at stake. Despite this, very, very few of our patients have such stringent views about their doctor, and even our most devout patients don’t require that their doctors are Catholic, merely that their own treatment follows accepted RCC teachings.
Just want to correct a possible mis-impression:
I am a VERY strong atheist and pro-choice advocate. I was simply stating what I believe to be the viewpoint of a deeply religious Catholic.
I didn’t know that last bit. Thank you for informing us. I know it is true with nurses, but usually we do not work alone, so we can “hand off” to someone without much difficulty, theorectically. Keep in mind, though, asking to be relieved of such a conflict is one thing-having another nurse agree to step in is another. If no other nurse will exchange assignments, and there is no other recourse (this would have to be a very rare thing), that conflicted nurse cannot abandon that pt-regardless of his or her belief system or ethical dilemma. It is malpractice for the nurse as well. Nurses can be and are sued for malpractice.
I don’t work OB, so this conflict doesn’t come up for me, but I do have friends who are OB nurses and they have been asked to switch pts upon occasion. The asking is put up with, but not well received. There well may be areas of the country and other hospitals where it is embraced fully, but not where I work. The expectation where I work is that the assignment given to you is the assignment you are to carry for your shift. It has been the same expectation at 2 other hospitals I have worked at, so I doubt it is all that uncommon. If the nurse does not state her objection when the assignments are given, she most likely cannot change it later.
My exact point and thank you for stating it so clearly. It seems clear that regardless of the religious convictions of the practitioner, the standard of care must be met.
Oh, I understand…I am not this stringent about my doctor myself! I was just trying to make the point about how a very strict Catholic might feel. And I thought this was the case about the doctor actually being Catholic…it’s about the ethics of it, not the religion of the doc.
Absolutely, and I never meant to imply that this is not the case. As I said, Catholic hospitals do not perform abortions, but they do give information/refer patients.
I totally get the pro life belief. Trust me. It’s very, very, VERY clear. It always has been. I disagree with it, but it seems we’re turning this into an abortion debate, and heaven knows, we’ve done that to death. Without getting into it any deeper: I understand, I respect your position, I respectfully disagree.
However. Is there any other reason you would not see a physician who isn’t Catholic? Doctors who perform abortions are actually a very small percentage of practitioners. Is there any reason you’d be violently opposed to seeing, say, an agnostic nephrologist? It isn’t as if he’ll be performing abortions. Or an atheist cardiologist? If the pro-life stance is the only thing that gives you pause in going to a non-Catholic doctor, neither of these practitioners should even cause a blip on your radar. In these cases, would you not agree that their dedication and ability are more important than their religious/political leanings?
Absolutely. I actually couldn’t care less about the religion (or lack thereof) of the doctor (or anyone else I associate with in life, for that matter). I think for most Catholics who care about such things, it would be more important to be at a Catholic hospital, vs. worrying about the specific doctor (especially in a life-or-death situation), because then you know general hospital policy will conform to Catholic ethics. As I was trying to say before, it’s more just a comfort level of knowing the doctor will understand your wishes, should end-of-life issues be necessary. With reproductive issues, it’s the same thing. I have a friend who also received pressure to get an amnio/“consider her options” when she had a late-in-life pregnancy, and she felt that SHE was being judged for not being “smart” about these options. So, judgement does work both ways. Sometimes it is just nice to have a practitioner who understands where you are coming from. Of course, any doc will ask you about your wishes in these kinds of circumstances, and you can explain it to them. I, having a simliar situation right now with the pregnancy/advanced age thing, simply told my doc (not a Catholic, BTW), how I felt about it, and he told me not to have any testing, so I won’t have to worry about the outcome. That is a good, sensitive doc, and I really like him. So, I completely understand your point.
“What”?! “What do you like to fuck”?! Lot of sheep in northern Spain, eh?!
Agnostic black sheep of an evangelical nondenominational family.
As long as the good doctor isn’t trying to convert me or hanging posters of their favored faith in the office, I don’t mind what they are.
Might have a WTF moment if they happened to be Scientologists, though. 
Wrong-O. Someone who thinks this life is all there is, is muchless likely to regard *HIS *life as expendable. Mine, to him, is optional.
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What?
Please explain this. How does this follow?