I consider all the vehicles stopped for the light to be in the intersection.
No, that is not what being “in” an intersection means. When you are stopped at a light behind the line, you have not yet entered the intersection.
I’ll take my argument to the judge and take my chances.
So enter the intersection even though the light is red? That’s not what your cite says:
I NEVER encourage anyone to run a red light, for according to the Texas Transportation Code, the only person who can authorize any motorist to disregard a red light is a police officer.
If you get in an accident doing that do you want to take your chances in civil court over tens of thousands (or more) in damages?
Moving to the right slowly, 1 car length at best , in front of the stopped traffic to my immediate right with a firetruck blaring - is not going to be as dangerous as making a full left turn accross several lanes of oncoming traffic.
I am not talking about darting out in front or thru the interesection - yes, it would technically be moving into the intersection and would be not advised (and potentially get you a ticket).
Remember - this was in response to the - ‘there are walls all around - no one can move but you - what do you do?’ hypothetical - it is NOT real world.
The answer is in the Port Arthur cite:
We who operate emergency vehicles understand the intersection doesn’t always open like the Red Sea. We need to be patient until it’s safe to proceed.
Wait for the left turn signal to turn green, make sure there’s no oncoming traffic so you can turn safely, make the turn and stop on the right of the crossroad so the fire engine can go by, if it also turns left.
I have very good insurance, and once the judge dismisses the charge of running a red light, my insurance company will be able to mount a vigorous fight.
And if the judge rules that by entering the intersection on a red, you created a hazard that caused an accident and finds you guilty?
I’ll appeal. How long do we want to keep weighing the OP down with hypotheticals?
What hypotheticals? Emergency vehicles get in accidents. Why wouldn’t Joe Driver in this circumstance? Even if 9,999 out of 10,000 times the person crossing against the light makes it with no fuss there will be that one time. And, in a country the size of the US, such an accident might happen somewhere almost daily.
(Made-up numbers, just illustrating the point.)
Similar situation happened to me, There were two full left turn lanes to one side, three cars in front and a full lane on the other side. After sitting at the light for a bit, the fire truck behind me fires up their lights and sirens and I am boxed in. Nobody ran the red, we just waited until the green and our lane moved through the intersection and got over and the fire truck continued on its way and we went back to our lane and continued on our way.
If directed by Police or Fire, etc.
Yes. At least in CA.
If the fire truck routinely has this issue at particular intersections, it sounds like the municipality needs to equip the emergency vehicles and traffic lights with devices that change the traffic light as the emergency vehicles approach the intersection. There appear to be multiple schemes for this using GPS, flashing light codes, etc.
The main streets where I live have gadgets installed on the lights that receive signals from fire trucks, ambulances, or police cars. As the emergency vehicle approaches an intersection with its device activated, the lights will change ahead of them and traffic will flow out of their way. No one gets stuck blocking their path.
Tell your alder(wo)man or city councilperson to look into it!
And possibly the reason the fire truck driver is tooting his horn is to alert the traffic coming from other directions and try to get them to stop and keep the intersection clear?
From @simster’s (excellent, on point) Port Arthur cite:
I’ve gone through a light to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle. I was careful not to cause an accident. I assume i would have been at fault if I’d pulled immediately in front of someone. But the opposing traffic heard the siren, too, and paused to let me though. Then i pulled over to the side to let the emergency vehicle pass.
The right thing to do depends on the traffic and how the road is set up. Usually you can just pull to the right. Sometimes you can’t. I don’t want a house to burn down or a person to bleed out because i was waiting for a light.
I agree and am all for getting out of the way as soon as is it is safe to do so. Presumably someone needs help and I do not want to delay the emergency responders at all.
I am amazed though that there seems no clear guidelines on this (as in the state tells you how to respond appropriately). As I mentioned in the OP I often see the fire trucks behind someone blasting their horn and you can really sense that the driver is at a loss of what to do (little, tentative moves usually).
(And I do mean often, I can see the intersection from my kitchen window and the fire house is a block away so they come by on an all too frequent basis.)
Do whatever you can do safely to get the F out of the way. That’s it. Doesn’t matter what the lights say or what the signs say. If you can proceed safely, proceed. My general first instinct is to move to the right to get out of the way. Complete the turn if you can safely do so. Just make room in any safe manner, even if it goes against the traffic lights or signs.
The same intersection? Does it have a median?
As mentioned by someone earlier, I usually see the firetruck go over into the oncoming lane and turn. From a visibility perspective, I don’t see how a random car going through a red light would be safer than the firetruck using the oncoming lane. Either there is cross traffic and no one should go or there is no cross traffic and it’s safe for the firetruck.
The firehouse should have figured out a better solution than honking.
The intersection is often bumper-to-bumper both directions (not always) with no opportunity for the fire engines to get around in oncoming lanes. If they can, they will do that. But, on a few occasions, they simply cannot get through for a bit because no one can get out of their way no matter how much they might wish to.