I'm Glad You're Dead

The BBQ Pit
21

Anger? Who said anything about anger?

“Sadness” is more like it. These guys did horrible things… and now they are dead. No redemption. No rehabilitation. No chance to make things better now. I sure wouldn’t want to meet MY maker with the load that Pol Pot had on HIS conscience. Assuming a gentle and merciful god, he’s probably STILL trying to explain himself.

My point is this: Rather than gloss over the evils a man has done during his funeral… why not simply state them?

"Today, we gather to see off a bad man. He was a bad man because he did bad things. These are the bad things he did. Yadda yadda yadda. These are the sins HE committed that YOU will have to and are still paying for. THESE are the crimes that he takes with him as he leaves this mortal existence to cross over into the Great Unknown.

There will be no redemption for him. No repentance. It’s too late. Let us meditate on what he has done… and what WE have done… and how we may best set these things right and make amends to those we have harmed. While we still breathe, and still have time to make it right."

22

With respect to Reagan or any past President for that matter, it’s pretty easy pickings for any simpleton to review the history of their presidency 20 to 40 years after the fact and using their super duper historical hindsight powers take issue with their polices that may have had unforseen future consequences.

The reason people liked Reagan was not because they were under some hypno ray, but mainly because, regardless of whatever his other faults were, he was unapologetically proud of America, and the American people by that point had had a bellyful of the simultaneously smug and self critical navel gazing of Carter style liberalism, accusations of malaise and the economic torment of double digit inflation.

I don’t how old you are but you seem fairly ignorant of the true cultural, historical and social context of the late 70’s and early 80’s. Things were a lot more complicated than you seem to think and the impact of various policies which you seem to think were so obvious, were not. Why don’t you rev this discussion up in Great Debates I’m sure there are lots of folks in that forum that would love to talk to you about it.

23

I didn’t see the OP as being partisan motivated at all. In fact, I’m just guessing here but I bet this guy is not even a Democrat (are you, Wang-Ka?)

FWIW I mostly agree with the OP. The human race has a horribly track record of not learning from its mistakes. Not just America, not just Democrats, not just Republicans or Communists or Facists. The entire human race. I don’t see anything at all wrong with educating future generations on past mistakes. I do have a problem with pretending these types were great men.

It is possible to present an objective non-politically motivated arguement against these guys without ad hominem attacks and I think the OP did a decent job of it. The press should do an even better job of it. Sadly enough, it’s probably a pipedream. Emotions sell, facts do not.

24

Dear astro -

Some of us DID realize the consequences of Reagan’s policies at the time! Amazing, isn’t it?

The voting bozos decided that “simple answers” were preferable to complex analysis.

We’re still paying - and now we have Son of Bonzo - and I know one 29-year-old who pegged Bush II as Reagan reincarnate, so I have some hope for the future (unfortunately, she was also out-voted by her peers).

25

I prefer ‘Idiot Son of an Asshole.’

[singing] And heeeee’s your Pre-si-dent!

26

Regan helped win the Cold War. He bluffed them out with things like Star Wars missile defense and other far-fetched claims at the time that the Soviets bought hook, line and sinker. The arms race lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Things could have been much different. The Iron Curtain could have still been around. We could have been under it.

27

Well gosh Nostradamus sorry those idjit voters that tossed Jimminy Carter out on his peanut didn’t see things your way. Hell of a thing that.

28

People are still shocked by obvious ramifications of policy Clusterfucks to this day.

“Oh, knee-jerk sabre-rattling towards North Korea has gotten us into an unstable and out-of-control Nuclear situation? And South Korea’s pissed at us too? Golly!”

Must be that damn Clinton, fucking us over with his peace and prosperity again.

29

Sigh

I’m really starting to wish I’d stayed away from Reagan. At least everyone AGREES that Nixon was an evil man… and I really didn’t intend for this to be a debate as to whether or not Reagan was evil. There is a large segment of the population who, until their dying day, will remain convinced that he was a Great American, regardless of what he did.

No, I’m not a Democrat. Democrats think that government can fix all the problems. I don’t believe that.

I once thought of myself as an Old School Republican. Old School Republicans seemed to be saying “Government can’t fix everything. Lower taxes are good. Less government spending is good. Government should shut up and run only the things that no one else can, like the military and foreign policy and nuclear bombs and such, and get out of Joe Citizen’s face as much as possible. Oh, and never forget that in America, the people are in charge.”

Unfortunately, that was before Reagan. Hell, before Nixon, really.

Nowadays, “Republican” seems to mean “Plutocrat turned politician who screws the poor, feeds the rich, and bleeds the middle class to pay for it all, and spin-doctors the truth to the point where no one knows what’s coming or going, but, hey, we know what’s best, so we don’t need to consult the people, except insofar as getting elected, and no matter WHAT happened in Florida, he was elected fair and goddamn square.”

I don’t much like that idea, so, no, I’m not a Republican, either.

And don’t anyone DARE call me a liberal. I know what liberal USED to mean, but nowadays it seems to mean “anyone who criticizes a Republican president or anyone Rush Limbaugh doesn’t like.”

Truth is, I’m conservative as hell.

Which is why I don’t much like the President right now.

And none of this is what this thread was supposed to be about.

Hell, forget I said anything.

30

It is amazing how you could live in Spain and yet miss so much that you now paint such an inaccurate picture. No one said anything bad about Franco? Give me a break. There were a few nostalgig followers but in the years following his death, saying anything good about Franco in Spain would pretty much get the same reaction as if you said today in the US that blacks should not have equal rights. Every street named after him was renamed.

Well, no need to hijack the thread but you really managed to not see what was going on around you.

31

"No, I’m not a Democrat. Democrats think that government can fix all the problems. I don’t believe that. "

I don’t think the Democrats believe that either. You have to keep in mind that it’s more splintered than the Republican Party.

Then again, I’m neither a Republican or a Democrat. I don’t follow any idealogy in particular and am not in any political party and don’t intend to join one, but I love using the label “some sort of democratic socialist”. I can hear it now…

Great rant, btw.

32

Well, yes, you could express it that you were misinformed.

To blame only Reagan for the deficit is to ignore the undoubted fact that all spending bills originate in the House of Representatives, which was controlled by Democrats throughout both of Reagan’s terms. So perhaps you need to wait until Tip O’Neill is at death’s door, and then rage at him.

The S&L crisis is a bit harder to blame on Reagan. He introduced a bill to re-regulate the industry, but it was bottled up in committee by Jim Wright, Democratic speaker of the House, at the behest of the more corrupt members of his constituency. Wright was not prosecuted for bribery and graft (mostly those who wanted to bribe him bought thousands of copies of a book of his speeches instead of handing over the cash directly), in return for resigning from the House in disgrace. Jim Wright is still alive, if you feel you must vent.

The stuff you accuse Nixon of in relation to Alger Hiss is basically just false. Hiss was convicted of perjury because the statute of limitations had run out on his spying for the Soviets. The microfilm in the pumpkin, plus Whittaker Chambers’ detailed descriptions of the life and habits of a man who Hiss denied ever having met, were considered evidence beyond a reasonable doubt by the jury convicting Hiss.

Nixon lied about Watergate, and did some other stuff that was roughly morally comparable to stuff many other Presidents did. He got caught, and he was a Republican. Sins enough for liberals in the media and elsewhere.

Very few American politicians are either as good as their campaign claims, or as bad as the other guy claims.

Regards,
Shodan

33

Star Wars was all just a big bluff to scare the Soviets and win the Cold War? Maybe it’s just me… well, it’s not just me, actually, but anyway, that sounds like a good healthy dose of revisionism to avoid admitting the Reagan was an idiot when it came to Star Wars. Just a stupid idea, period.

34

Gee, it would seem that I was misinformed.

I was under the impression that Reagan, who made a point of deregulating a great many industries in which he had friends, was in large part responsible for deregulating S&L’s. I was not aware that he later changed his mind and tried to undo it all, and that it was all Jim Wright’s fault, although I am aware of Wright’s part in the eventual disaster… as well as that of Neil Bush.

I was also under the impression that Reagan fought like hell to increase defense spending, even to the point of going into deficit spending, including finding funding for the SDI program – the program that would later be called “Star Wars”. Doubtless he did in fact work very hard to put a leash on that spendthrift Democratic Congress.

Then again, I seem to remember his defense of deficit spending, and that it had something to do with stimulating the economy. No doubt he was simply trying to protect the careers and reputations of those silly wasteful Democrats. Just out of curiosity, was “trickle-down economics” their idea, too? If so, George W. sure seems to have latched onto it. They should stand up and take credit, quick, before he saves America with it and steals all the credit for himself…

I was also under the impression that Hiss’ conviction remained highly debatable. There are, in fact, two documentaries still drifting around that give that very strong impression (I can’t remember the names at the moment, but I do recall seeing them on the Discovery and/or History Channel). At the very least, I would not like for my freedom, honor, and reputation to be shot out of the saddle over a pumpkin with no fingerprints or conclusive evidence and (in large part) the testimony of Whit Chambers – a person whose credibility was somewhat questionable, as I recall. I guess I should also have mentioned Nixon’s work with HUAC, a committee which merrily tap danced all over the Constitution until McCarthy finally stepped in the baaad stuff and got censured… but, after all, there were plenty of other politicians who could have stood up and said, “Hey, this is nuts. We need to cut this stuff out,” but remained silent.

You are of course, correct – hardly anyone’s as wicked as their enemies would claim.

Then again, I tend to feel that if you destroy even ONE person’s life to further your own goals, that kind of makes you a bad person… particularly if you go to your grave without so much as a fraggin’ apology to those you harmed.

35

Not to mention then they come after you with their dead, zombie eyes and their putrid, rotting flesh and try to eat your brains!!

36

So this Red Army soldier is standing guard in Red Square. This peasant looking guy walks up and says “I want to see Comrade Stalin”

The soldier looks at him, snorts and says “You’re a year too late. Comrade Stalin is dead.”

Next day, same peasant walks up, hes got a newspaper picture of Stalin. He points to the picture and says “I want to see Comrade Stalin, Chairman of the Central Committee, First Minister of…”

The soldier interrupts: “You ignorant clod! Comrade Stalin is dead.”

Peasant wanders away. Next day he come back again, but before the peasant can speak, the soldier barks at him:

“Not again! I’ve already told you, Stalin is dead! Dead! Whats the matter, are you stupid! Why do you keep coming back?”

“No, not at all. I love hearing you say it.”

37

And what precisely is bad about deregulation? Sometimes it’s necessary to borrow lots of money - ever taken out a mortgage? And he, along with Margaret Thatcher and the Mujhahideen of Afghanistan, caused the collapse of the Soviet Union. This does not constitute screwing up America.

So you’re a socialist and Reagan wasn’t/isn’t. Presumably you’re equally disappointed that Clinton didn’t fix the problem.

38

Um…it’s a little late for that.:wink:
Anyway, I’m not here to proclaim Reagan was the greatest President or anything like that.

But this rant that he screwed up America is sounds like cry baby stuff coming from someone who either was a juvenile or not smart enough to take advantage of what was going on during the Reagan Era, and instead wants to blame the woes of their present pathetic hamburger flipping life upon a single old man who hasn’t been President for over 14 years. (Whew! What a mouthful. I’m gonna get my ass kicked for saying it, too. Aren’t I:D) Things were miserable under Jimmy Carter. I was there to attest to that. But I can’t singularly blame him. There is in fact this minute’ body of people sometimes refered to as Congress. That’s a combined total of well over 500 people. Yet somehow this one little old screwed our country up, right?:rolleyes:

That makes no more sense than saying Clinton was solely responsible for the economy in the 90’s. He wasn’t.

39

…and precisely where did I say I was a socialist? Jeez, guy, if you’re a Reagan fan, fine, but don’t pull stuff out of thin AIR, for Swingchick’s sake…

…and deregulation is a tightrope. Sometimes, deregulation is a good thing; for example, removing regulations meant to restrain large corporations from small businesses, thus allowing small businesses to compete. Even I can’t gripe about that much.

On the other hand, when one examines the causes and results of the Savings And Loan Crisis, along with some of the horror stories that were part of it… one cannot help but wonder what insane politician would not foresee at least SOME of this, and why they practically sent out engraved invitations to those who actually perpetrated the frauds, scams, and outright theft that brought it about.

Did Reagan intend to cost the country billions of dollars? No. But I very much think he wanted to provide some opportunities for S&L owners and operators to make big bucks using my money… and, if you look at what S&Ls are supposed to be, that ain’t what it’s about. If you want to get rich using other people’s money, open a damn BANK. Banks and S&Ls were NOT supposed to be the same thing… and the deregulation of S&Ls pretty much invited them to BE banks… WITHOUT a lot of the structure that holds the BANKING system TOGETHER!

Did Reagan MEAN for this to happen? Prolly not… but if the deregulation of S&Ls was not an act of downright evil, then it was an act of stupidity that, as far as I am concerned, qualifies it as nearly the same thing.

To borrow an analogy, I’m sure Union Carbide didn’t MEAN to kill, blind and cripple thousands of Indian folks in Bhopal… but to those blind, crippled Indians, I think it might not make a hell of a lot of difference, you know?

As to Clinton: I don’t expect politicians to fix ANYTHING any more. I think that’s probably setting our expectations too high. These days, I’m happy if they just don’t screw anything else UP!

40

Maybe, maybe not.

When I was a 14 year old virgin I was raped by a boy who was then 17. I was at a friends house, we were drinking wine and I had passed out. I was awakened by the pain. I never told anyone about it because I thought it was what I deserved for drinking.

About 10 years later he died in a freak accident when he slipped on a houseboat, was knocked out and drowned. I for one was estactic that he was finally dead. The only thing I regretted was that he died quickly. Bastard.

That was 20 years ago and I am still angry. But not as angry as I would be if I knew he was still alive.