I'm gonna go kill a goat

Factual Questions
1

I was in a debate with my friend the other day and we came across the topic of sacrifice. Sacrifice in order to be cleansed of sins or wrongdoing in general by killing off an animal, burning its carcass and doing crazy dancing and whatnot to appease a god. I’m curious as to how the practice came about, and why it has been practiced for so long. Anyone know who came up with the idea of killing of anything (lambs, fruit, goats, humans, whatever) helps people get forgiven of their sins. I would believe that ‘scapegoats’ came first, where the sins were ceremoniously attached to a being and cast out into the wilderness. Then somewhere along in time, the scapegoats weren’t cutting it, and Og and Tok had to do something more to appease their divine being. Then after killing the fattened calf, and still feeling god’s wrath, moved onto other things.

I would like to know why sacrifice has been such a big part of our lives, who thought of it first, and who told us that this is ok, when all it does is spoil a perfectly good creature.

“People must think it must be fun to be a super genuis,
But they don’t realize how hard it is
to put up with all the idiots in the world.”
– Calvin and Hobbes
(__)
/

2

Likely a cow god, particularly as to goats. Cow gods in Berkeley? Mmmmmoooooooo!

Can you get away with killing the animal for the god and then taking it back for food?

Did sacrificing animals work as well as sacrificing humans?

Why do cow gods care?

Ray

3

The first recorded sacrifice of an animal to a god that I can think of would be in the bible. Able sacrificed an animal to the Lord God.
Cain on the other hand sacrificed gain and God didn’t like it (was displeased at his offering). Cain was jealous of Able and then killed him (his own brother). This is perported to have happened about 4000-5000 BC.
Sacrifieces to God continue to this day in some religions, mainly Jewish I believe.

4

In Nepal, the Hindu people do make animal sacrifices as a form of worship. But they also eat the meat. I really have no problem with this. If you were going to kill the goat to eat anyway, what difference does it make if there is a ceremony surrounding the sacrifice?
I was really priviledged last year to be invited to a goat sacrfice. I say priviledged because women are not normally allowed at the temple, and especially not to the sacrifice. But, being a good friend of the local priest and a foriegner, they figured they could bend the rules.
I expected to be totally disgusted by the entire affair and to walk away finding the practice even more distasteful than before. But it really wasn’t that bad. After some words of invocation, they slit the goat’s throat, and it was dead in a matter of seconds. I couldn’t see that it was worse than any other method of killing the goat for food. After the ceremony, they butchered and cleaned the goat, and split the meat up among the family of the woman who bought the goat. I was also invited to dinner, and I have to say the goat made a darn nice curry.
I can’t speak to the reasons for all animal sacrifice in Nepal, but in this case, a local woman had made a deal with the gods the previous year, asking that they make her sons profitable in their businesses. As they had all had a great year, she was living up to her end of the bargain by giving the goat for sacrifice.

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

5

Lucky, I’m not up on Hindu but I thought that the worshiped animals and would not kill them or eat them.

watch what you say
or they’ll be calling
you a radical,
a liberal,fanatical
a criminal…

6

Lucky’s experience is pretty typical. Animal sacrifice isn’t as common as it was in the good ole days ;), but generally the reasoning wasn’t to kill an animal just for the heck of it, but as an offering of meat to the god. Animal meat was considered a luxury item (as it still is in many parts of the world), and it was a considered a valuable thing to offer to the god(s). Since the god(s) usually didn’t show up to collect, the meat was typically feasted upon as part of the ceremony. In the case of the Romans, this provided a way for the state to give some food to the people, and foster a since of public goodwill, in addition to giving wealthy citizens a way to indirectly foster goodwill from the people (by sponsering the sacrifice).

Arjuna34

7

I think that bodily sacrifice may not register strongly with us Moderns, because we’re more removed from the life cycle. Sacrifice is ritual, a performance given to focus attention and gain meaning. If you are outside of the culture the ritual is performed in, it may have no meaning at all.

But, to offer up a goat, or other creature, and see it’s life ebb and then partake in its then sacred body can have great meaning. Perhaps the Christian Communion is a benign holdover of this ritual. The body of the beast has been sanctified, so to make that body part of one’s being is to become sacred as well.

8

Sacrifices by hill tribes in northern India are usually done during the festival / season of Dussera – usually in October. It is the harvest festival roughly equivalent to thanksgiving.

Sacrifices are for promises kept during the previous year by the Gods. Usually these are food items and usually include livestock. Various animals represent various levels of ‘commitment’ by the penitent. For example: ‘Lord help me pass my exams this year” could rate the sacrifice of a chicken or a pigeon while a “Please cure my young baby of xxx” could be a goat or a sheep.

Obviously I am simplifying greatly but this is not unlike making a pledge. The animal is brought to the center of the village by the penitent and handed over to the headman or the priest. He then says the appropriate words, and hands it over to the butcher. I say butcher but the actual word is ‘Bali’. He is NOT a professional butcher but selected for the moment by the priest. The animal has to be de-capitated in one stroke or it doesn’t count – bad luck follows otherwise.

During the festival, the day starts with small sacrifices, pigeons, chickens and progresses to the bigger animals to the evenings. Goats, sheep, pigs’ etc come later and are for thanks for bigger and bigger promises. The finale is the sacrifice of the water buffalo seen by all in the sacrifice scent in “Apocalypse Now”. Here too the decapitation is done in one stroke. The buffalo is the thanks by the whole village and not a single individual.

The interesting thing is that none of the meat is wasted. In a sense, the animals are brought to the field for being blesses by the gods. The family that offered the sacrifice consumes all meat. The buffalo meat is also distributed to all present – regardless of belonging. There is much rejoicing.

Someone mentioned that these guys being Hindus should be worshipping the cow and not killing them. Well, what we think of Hinduism is a collection of very diverse philosophies. Oh and one more thing. Most of the people taking part in this ritual call themselves strict vegetarians. Except for this one day, they usuallt are.

9

Hindus consider cows to be sacred, that’s why they don’t eat beef (well, they’re not supposed to). All other forms of meat are fine.

10

But if they’re offering “meat” to the gods by the sacrifice, and then they take that meat back and eat it themselves, how can that “sacrifice” be of benefit the gods? Why don’t the gods feel gypped. . .er. . .maybe these weren’t Gypsies. What if they just killed animals and ate them and then later claimed they had pacified the gods, or whatever they do that sort of thing for. Oh, yeah, I know, rationality is wasted on this sort of stuff, of course, but then the dope here has to look straight also, doesn’t it?

Ray (If it’s dopey already, do you need to dope it up more?)

11

toecutter;
I’m so glad you mentioned the watter buffalos. How 'bout those khukuris they use for that? I don’t think I could even lift one of those!

Jaydabee;
As TheUnforgiven said, it is the cow that is sacred to Hindus. In Nepal, it is illegal to kill a cow. It is a big problem if you kill one even accidentally, such as by hitting it with your car. I have never met a Hindu in Nepal who ate beef. The Nepali’s of my aquaintance would find that as stomache-turning as most Americans would find eating a cat or dog.
As to not eating animals at all, it depends on caste and degree of religious commitment. I am not an expert in this area so I hope someone will correct any errors I make. Brahmins, the highest caste, are supposed to be vegetarian, but many will eat poultry, game, goat—it depends on how religious the person is. As you go down the line in levels of caste, the dietary and other restrictions lessen.
Nanobyte;
I agree with you that it seems awfully silly to sacrifice the meat to the gods, but then to eat it yourself. But then, I also think sprinkling holy water on oneself, calling on the power of Ram, bowing to Mecca, etc., etc., etc. are equally silly.

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

12

Can you save me some of the blood?

13

ya know, just curious n stuff

“People must think it must be fun to be a super genuis,
But they don’t realize how hard it is
to put up with all the idiots in the world.”
– Calvin and Hobbes
(__)
/

14

Best read these two books: Sir James Frazer The Golden Bough and Marvin Harris Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches, which cover the issues quite definitively.

Briefly, the use of sacrifice represents both elements of homeopathic and sympathetic magic, when you want to control what appears to be out of your purview… and also they are important, often not for the sacrifice in itself, but for the actions required to provide the sacrifice, and the community ties built up in the process. The sacrifice of, say, alot of pigs for a wedding implies that people in the community were exhorted to higher levels of production above subsistence in order to come up with the sacrificial pigs, and the various members of the community become interdependent (“my yams died this season, can you help me out ?”)

The cow question ? because the cows are, in the long run, worth more alive than dead to the communities in South Asia dependent on cow pies for fuel, milk for proteins and fats, etc… than the immediate benefit of meat.

15

Well, actually the cow is held sacred for religious reasons. I suppose one could argue that at the heart of the matter is practical benefits to society in the same manner that one can argue that the ten commandments are the invention of man to instill a more orderly society. But I think you might offend the adherants of the respective religions with either argument.

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

16

Yup. Gandhi made the argument in explaining ahimsa, the injunction against cow-eating in India.

17

Yes, and pre-dating Gandhi by a couple of millenia are the Vedas. Atharda Veda, in particular, has some nice sections on worship of the cow.
Furthermore, from The Hindu Tradition by A. Embree regarding the prohibition agaist eating beef:

“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

18

First: NO, Jaydabee, there are no animal sacrifices in Judaism today, nor have there been since about 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed. ((Minor footnote that there is a small sect in Israel that does sacrifice a lamb, even today, on Passover.))

Prayer has replaced sacrifice. There are, however, times in the traditional Jewish prayer service when we read about and REMEMBER sacrifices, but no sacrifices are performed.

There is ritual slaughter required for food to be kosher (“fit” for being eaten under traditional Jewish law). But that’s not sacrfice, that has to do with removing blood from the meat.

Let’s clear up another misconception about sacrifice in Biblical days in Judaism. The animals or fruit were NOT simply burned; they were fed to the priests. Yes, the unclean parts of animals were burned; but the meat was given to the priests. The sacrifice was thus partly in the nature of a tax, to support the priests (who, in ancient Israel, did not hold land.)

The whole notion of sacrifice is not so far off or remote as many make it sound. Let’s say that someone has done some evil act, and throws themselves on the mercy of the court and says how sorry they are. Don’t we want to see some act of contrition? Just SAYING they’re sorry isn’t usually sufficient; we want them to do community service, or to do some act that demonstrates their sincerity.

In ancient days, that meant giving up something valuable.

And one last clarification, jaydabee: In the story of Cain and Abel, that you summarize, you omit a crucial word. Abel brings the “best” animal as sacrifice; Cain brings grain. Later comments in the text (describing the sacrfices in the Temple) make it clear that there is nothing wrong with grain as a sacrifice. God’s displeasure at Cain’s offering was therefore interpreted by most rabbinic commentators as the spirit in which it was offered, not the sacrifice itself: Abel gave up his best, Cain did not.

19

In Judaism, the sacrifice is a symbolic atonement. It’s meant to say, “I sinned, and it should be my blood that’s being shed, but you (i.e., G-d) have mercifully allowed me to shed the blood of an animal instead, and I’ll try to do better next time.”

Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@kozmo.com

“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

20

To Imthecowgodmoo: Are you sure it isn’t just a little interspecies jealousy/rivalry? If it is…how pleblean. I always knew you for one of the hoi polloi , 'cowgod. Just one of those nouveau gods. (mooveau?) :stuck_out_tongue:

It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose.