I'm now boycotting any food product that says anything about "Carbs"

Oh, I just thought of something else actually as I re-read this post - and it raised a very salient point. That is, the lack of empirical evidence regarding the “success rate” of the Atkins diet - or for that matter, the “Lo Fat” diet of a decade ago etc.

Here’s my logic dillemna… all of the published evidence concludes that rates of “overweightness and obesity” are higher than ever before in the Western World. Surely, we can agree on this, yes? OK, my logic hurdle is this - how can we empirically measure (let alone even identify or define) the success of the Atkin’s diet in comparison to other notable diet programs which have come before it?

You see, (and jayjay please note I’m not singling you out here - you merely raised the salient point) my maths tells me that more and more people than ever before in the Western World are having weight problems. And while it’s very true that some people are showing great results on the Atkin’s program - the maths would indicate that more people than ever before need to do something about their weight. Hence, how can we ever possibly measure how successful Atkin’s is, if the numbers of people with weight problems keeps climbing regardless?

So, as I said, I applaud the success that some people have had with Atkins. That’s great. The problem seems to be far more entrenched than even the good Doctor himself could foresee however. In an earlier post, I opined that innately the problem is that we, as a culture in the Western World, are lazier than ever before. Certainly, this explains the explosion in numbers. Hence, I tend to fall back on my credo of “work harder in your general life” because ultimately, the maths would indicate that THAT is the true source of the problem.

I’m glad this Atkin’s craze has come about. It makes it so much easier to find no- and low sugar food. Not that I need to lose weight- far from it. I beleive that refined sugar slowly destroys our bodies over time, and try to avoid it whenever I can. Before this Atkins craze ( whatever happed to proper diet and excercise----you know, taking responsibility for your actions?) it was difficult to avoid carbs while eating out and traveling. Now it’s incredibly easy.

Have been lurking mostly but just had one quick question…
Why this assumption that Atkins is a lazy alternative? The book does insist that exercise is crucial and a requirement of the diet long term, and the diet itself involves more preparation and thought than the common fast food options many busy people use. Instead of 2-3 convienience meals or snacksper day, maybe one real prepared meal or snack- nearly everything I put into my mouth has to be prepared by myself ahead of time. Even snacks usually involve some pre-planning/ preparation. I get up about an hour earlier than I used to in order to prepare a decent breakfast- when I come home from a 12 hour shift, I still spend 30 min or so making a low carb, healthy dinner. We have a gas station next to work, before Atkins snack options were limitless. Now, I can buy a pickle, a string cheese or a small bag of nuts. If I want to have more variety- it will take a little more thought and effort than running next door with some small change.
I’m also surprised that no one has pulled out this study…while it was a small study and the results not entirely conclusive- it does suggest there might be a little more to it than calories in, calories out.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/diet.fitness/10/14/lowcarb.mystery.ap/

Well of course it matters. That’s the whole point. The real source of the weight loss is important to know. If Atkins people are really finding that their low carb meals simply make them feel fuller and thus they eat fewer calories, while they are also beginning an exercise program then they are in a regime where their energy input is less than their daily output. The difference has to be made up somehow according to the law of conservation of matter and energy and this difference is made up by breaking down fat.

My diet right now is mostly vegetables, chicken, fish and whole grains. Probably lower in carbs than the average American diet of candy, bread, potato chips, soft drinks and booze but still higher in carbs than Atkins or other low-carb diets. It’s also very low in calories. I find it filling since most of what I eat is bulky and I eat frequently. This, I think is the key to any diet that actually works, it must in some way suppress hunger. Low carb diets seem to and so does a “cave man” type diet like what I eat. I remain unconvinced, however, that there is any special magic in what Atkins advocates. A reduction in energy intake combined with an increase in energy output should always result in weight loss. You probably could lose comparable weight on a diet of pure sugar if the calories were sufficiently limited. Such a diet would be devoid of micro-nutrients, would leave you feeling hungry all the time, and might lead to diabetes and other health problems but it would “work” in a sense.

Finally, someone brought up the Inuit. The poster was using them as an example of how you can live without carbs. No doubt this true. However, I was thinking of them in a different way. The Inuit, to my understanding, were* more or less always on a diet similar to the “induction” phase of a typical low-carb diet. So how did they stay alive?!? Think about it. If eating like that is supposed to make you lose weight, even on a high calorie diet, even without doing much exercise, how did the Inuit stay alive? The problem is compounded by the fact that the Inuit lived in a very rigorous physical environment of extreme cold that increases the body’s caloric requirements considerably. They were far from sedentary as well. Compare this lifestyle to that of a typical computer programmer on the Atkins plan sitting in his cubicle at 20C doing mostly nothing.

  • The Inuit diet I am referring to is, of course, that which they had before much contact with white society.

When all is said and done this is probably what it comes down to. Modern humans eat too much fucking sugar. No faster way to get more useless calories. Like a hit off the dietary crack pipe.

I’ve thought about this post. I’ve thought about it for quite some time. My only response, after much private debate is as follows… given that 1 pound of fat equates to 3,500 calories - this implies that you have shortfallen your calorie intake by a grand total of 25 x 3,500 calories over say, what, 25 weeks? This means that, on average, you’ve undereaten by an average of 500 calories per day - while still eating 3,000 or 4,000 calories a day - while maintaining a moderately sedentary lifestyle and doing little exercise (in your own words).

Either (a) you were somehow burning up an average of 3,500 to 4,500 calories per day. Possible, but given your description of yourself, not likely. Or (b), you’ve plucked the 3,000-4,000 calorie figure out of the air to try and win a debating point. To that end, to verify same, and further, to conclude that the lack of carbohydrates WITHIN that 3000-4000 calories is legit, give us a typical example of your daily food diary at the time. After all, if you can claim you were consistently eating between 3,000 to 4,000 calories a day, this implies you were keeping track of what you were eating. I’d love to see how you were getting that many calories into you while ALSO keeping your carbohydrates to under 20 grams or so a day. Man, that’s an AWFUL lot of fat and protein per day. Well over a pound and a half in the abscence of carbohydrates.

Best of luck. I have no doubts you’ve lost weight Bambi, but as to the claim regarding your calorie intake? I call bullshit. (Assuming you don’t have either Crone’s Disease, or a tape worm).

The same challenge goes out to you BiblioCat. Give us an example of one week’s worth of your food diary too. Go on. You’re so keen to credit the Atkin’s diet with your success. Well, I bet you London to a Brick that if you were to show us your weekly food diary (with no bullshit involved) we’d find your calorie intake is low enough to be the reason for your weight loss - not the ketosis magic bullet myth you’re so ready to ascribe the success to. As I said, ketosis is a function of under-eating. It’s when the body dips into fat reserves. If you’re undereating, by virtue of ramping up your exercise levels, and reducing your calorie intake - the reality is that millions of people have succeeded in the same way without needing to credit the Atkin’s Program therein.

Indeed, I’d wager your diet is almost identical to mine from what I’ve read thus far. The difference between us is that I don’t feel the need to cheer and barrack for some Doctor dude. I’m pretty sure that if you had discovered your current diet by yourself say, 10 years ago, you’d be adopting much the same philosophy as me I dare say.

So, Boo, how do we know you are telling the truth about your experiences? After all, if it’s a fair question for Biblio, it’s fair for you?

As for why her Ketostix turn purple, it’s because they’re coming into contact with ketones. That’s what Ketostix do, fercrissakes, they turn purple when they come into contact with ketones, just like Azostix turn green when in contact with BUN. That’s why they’re useful diagnostic tools used in medical laboratories. If the only thing the sticks are coming into contact with besides the air is her urine, then it’s safe to say that her urine contains ketones.

Ketosis does indeed cause weight loss. In fact, that’s how we most often catch diabetes in animals. The animal has been hungry all the time, and then, suddenly, it just started losing weight even though its feeding regimin hasn’t changed one iota. Then it stopped eating yesterday, and it’s practically down to skin and bones. Why? It’s in diabetic ketoacidosis, a particular type of ketosis found in poorly controlled diabetics. The ketosis first melts the weight off despite unchanged caloric intake, then kills the appetite. It’s a medical fact–ask any doctor or veterinarian about it.

Is it safe to deliberately induce ketosis? I don’t know. It’s not something I’d care to try without a lot more research into the long-term effects. We tend to think of ketosis as a bad thing associated with all sorts of health problems, but near as I can tell, those problems are caused by the disease that induced the ketosis rather than actual effects of the ketosis itself. I certainly haven’t seen any hard scientific evidence that ketosis is in and of itself dangerous.

Sure, I’ll scan some photos within the next day or two. My credentials won’t be in dispute. But that being said, I don’t see anyone arguing that high-energy athletic persuits do NOT result in fat loss. Ergo, your challenge is a bit of a strawman actually. The contention which I’ve challenged in my post above is that someone can maintain a high calorie diet by virtue of lots of fats and proteins, and still lose weight by minimising carbohydrates. And I’m here to say that such a claim goes against the laws of physics.

I have no doubt that Bibliocat doesn’t count calories. However, she does count the amount of carbohydrates she’s eating - which by another name is watching watch she’s eating. I’m arguing that the laws of physics win here, not the laws of marketing.

My math has me 51 lbs lighter today than I was on 7 Jan, which is an average of 3.4 lbs * 3500 = 11,900 kcal deficit a week, given simple in and out calculations. As I said earlier, I no longer eat as much as I did at first. However, to make you happy, I would be ecstatic to post my food journal. My earlier estimate was a mistake – at no time was I ingesting 3000 calories a day every day, but there were days when it went that high; there were also days around 2000, and a couple when I was sick around 1500. There were also a more than one outlier exceeding 4000 calories. My average intake early on was closer to 2700 kcals daily. Currently, that has dropped to between 1800 and 2200 calories a day.

At a deficit of 11,900 calories a week, I would have to have daily deficit of 1700kcals, which I find unlikely. Early on, that would indicate a BMR of 4400; currently it would indicate a BMR of 3900.

As promised, here is my daily food journal, starting on 5 Jan 04. Please ignore the weights as entered as well as the goal information – focus on the nutritional breakdown. Also be advised that early January was a low-intake time for me, because I was sick quite a bit. I really picked up in February. If you don’t believe that I am the person who owns that journal because of the name difference, you might want to check my email address, which is the same.

Moreover, please ignore the calories burned section – it generates that automatically based on your weight. As I’m sure you’re aware, one’s BMR cannot be scaled linearly based solely on weight; it depends more on composition. Also frustrating is that the food summary here does not pull out fiber like it does in the private view. Furthermore, pay no attention to the “Current Weight / Goal Weight” section. I do not regularly update it, as I use an Excel spreadsheet for the purpose. Shall I give you that as well?

For the record, I require no images of you as an Olympic cycler. You’ve never lied here in the past (that I am aware of), so I trust you. In fact, until this thread, I’ve usually liked and agreed with what you’ve posted.

BTW, if you’re going to read my journal, do so in the next day or two, because I will be pulling it from public view after then.

Well I hope you weren’t directing that at me, because the vitriol certainly didn’t start with me. I’d say it’s coming from both sides of the fence, if anything, more from the pro-Atkins people. You wanna see vitriol - check out annplurabelle’s last response to me. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

You keep forgetting that this is a thread about someone who is sick of hearing about “carbs” all the time. If you just want to be “left alone” to do your Atkins thing, it puzzles me why any of you would even have bothered to open this thread. It’s quite obvious from the title that this isn’t the “Up with Atkins” thread.

Tell ya what - if you find a post from me in this thread where I directed “vitriol” at anyone who didn’t do so first, I will gladly apologize.

Why would I want to do that? It has nothing to do with my point. I think you will find that most nutritionists will agree that limiting bleached flour and refined sugar is beneficial. That’s not the point of contention. The point of contention is whether to severely restrict carbohydrates, as per the Atkins diet. Conventional wisdom says to eat a balance of lean meat, green vegetables, fruits, nuts, and WHOLE grains. There is no such thing as a refined sugar/bleached flour diet. NOBODY thinks that’s good for you. You’re arguing against a straw man. The DIFFERENCE between conventional wisdom and Atkins is that Atkins recommends severely limiting ALL carbohydrates. This argument you guys keep throwing around about how you “occasionally” eat carbs is just a red herring. You know perfectly well that Atkins is about cutting carbs. It’s really disingenuous to confuse the issue like that. Eating carbohydrates in a sensible way does not mean stuffing your face with white bread, candy, and soda. Again I will make the point that there is a middle ground between that and Atkins.

Mate, by any yardstick, that’s absolutely fantastic. I truly offer you my most heartfelt kudos and congratulations. Honestly.

I sincerely hope you rate of weight loss continues unabated. It’s a genuinely impressive achievement. Most importantly, I hope one day you’ll take up a sport or some activity which you would never have dreamed of being able to partake in even just a year ago. When that happens I reckon you’ll never go back to your old ways. As I like to say, the trick in life is to replace bad habits with good ones.

That’ll happen again. Threads like this are threads which can easily get people fired up because they have quasi lifestyle judgement overtones, but I’m still that same guy you’ve always known.

I really don’t have time for you, annaplurabelle. Your style is to litter the thread with so much hogwash and insults, that to address every point is a virtual impossibility. So I will mention a couple things and then leave you to your preaching.

You’re just throwing out massive amounts of bullshit and then saying “Care to dispute this?” The onus is on the one making claims to prove them.

And then Rick tag-teams you with this gem:

I don’t know what Rick thinks he proved, but it’s not all the stuff anna was saying.

Utterly wrong. I conceded that conflicting claims about Atkins from people who possible don’t understand it do not PROVE that Atkins’ claims are wrong. But that’s not the argument I’m making here. Show me where in the above quote I say it proves Atkins’ invalidity. I was trying to stave off the inevitable onslaught of non-sequiturs and conflicting claims that just tend to muddle the train of thought. Obviously, it didn’t work.

I don’t have to prove the claims are wrong. If you make scientific claims, YOU have to prove they are RIGHT.

And now, since everyone seems to be working themselves into a lather, I thank you all for an enjoyable discussion. See ya later…

My “vitriolic” post. Poor baby, how horrific it must have been for you… :wink:

Translation: After hours of frantic searching, I haven’t been able to find a credible cite to counter the cites you’ve presented. I will now litter this thread with my usual obfuscations in an attempt to save face after my own bullshit has been called (Hey, it works for Ann Coulter, doesn’t it?).

Read my cites (or Bambi’s). A quick google will back them up (as you must know by now). Where are your counter-arguments?

Buh-bye. Come back when you’ve learned something about nutrition/biochem or are capable of telling the truth (both would be nice, but I don’t want to be overly optimistic).

Gee, maybe it was the way the OP was worded:

My bolding. Ya think? :rolleyes:
Meanwhile, yet another cite to exonerrate “the Atkins freaks”:

My bolding again.

I’m glad that you’re doing better, Bambi. Still, with what I’ve seen in other recovered food addicts, I would still seek some form of help. I’m not completely sold on the theory of “addictive personality,” but I have seen food addicts transfer their obsession (and believe me, that’s not too strong a word) to other things, most worryingly drugs or alcohol. Strong as you sound on this message board, I’d feel better knowing that you’d talked this out with someone in person.

Not sure what the quoted material is supposed to prove except that the wheat industry doesn’t like Atkins. I’m sure the meat and dairy industries, by contrast, love him. There are special interests all over the map on any issue. The real issue for me is not whether one should live on corn flakes and candy bars (a strawman) but whether radical limits on carbs are the real reason for the weight loss in low carb diets.

Inoshiro picture this: Your SO walks in with a multi-million dollar winning lottery ticket.
SO “Honey look we won $10 million dollars!”
You “Was it a quick pick, or did you pick the numbers yourself”
SO “WTF?, Who cares? We won $10 million dollars!”
You “But is important to know”
SO “It doesn’t fucking matter you idiot, the important thing is we won $10 million dollars, who cares where the numbers came from.”

It other words, it is not important if it is reduced intake, increased fat intake, reduced carbs, or Morgal the friendly dreleb (what nobody got the reference?)
What is important is the weight loss.

Thank you for your concern. The psychological reasons behind my previous addiction were discussed and remedied long ago with a licensed psychotherapist. I am a much stronger person today than I was 5 - 7 years ago. However, even after the therapy, I was still gaining weight. I went without health insurance (hooray retail!) for a long time, but when I finally got it, I immediately consulted a doctor about my weight.

He did some blood work and discovered that my resting insulin count was around 85 - 90. :eek: Insulin’s primary role is the transport of glucose to the body’s cells, but it also promotes fat storage and cravings for food. This incredibly high insulin count was caused by years of overeating – the more simple carbohydrates you eat, the more insulin your body produces to lower your blood sugar; long-term high levels of insulin cause your body’s cells to become resistant to it, leading your body to produce more insulin, continuing the cycle. In most people, this leads to adult-onset diabetes as the pancreas fails due to insulin overproduction or as the body’s cells become so insulin-resistant that the pancreas simply can’t produce enough. In my case, the pancreas hadn’t failed – it just continued to produce more and more insulin. This was the physiological reason behind my being hungry all the time. Even though I had eaten recently, the food just wasn’t getting to my cells because they were just too resistant to insulin. This would lead to me eating more the satisfy the physiological craving for food. Had this continued unabated, I would have developed diabetes – there is absolutely no doubt.

My doctor put me on a mildly-restricted carbohydrate diet, because he had had success treating other borderline and full-blown diabetics with it. It wasn’t enough for me, so I put myself on Atkins. When I hopped on Atkins, these physical cravings vanished. I honestly have to remind myself to eat – in fact I woke up about 2 hours ago, and I just now remembered that I should eat something. And my resting insulin has dropped to 30 - 40, along with a decrease in triglycerides, LDL cholesterol, and blood pressure. My doctor is amazed at the success I’m having, and he is encouraging me to continue as long as I want. My bloodwork keeps coming back OK, so I’m going to keep doing it.

Again, Duke, thank you for your concern, but I honestly know what I’m doing.