I never called anybody a brownshirt. I brought up some points about the BSA’s current policy. And I never debated the right of the BSA to exclude anybody; I pointed out that they were using their right of exclusion in a bigoted and ignorant fashion which perpetuates outdated stereotypes. You may want to read my post again.
Meanwhile, your economic arguments are rather amusing. Are you really claiming that pandering to contributors is a good reason to promote discrimination? Way to uphold your high moral standards. How much would I have to contribute to the BSA to get the policy reversed?
Anyhow, according to the BSA’s website, the reason for their policy is…
Below is a copy of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Please point out to me which of these qualities that I, as a gay man, lack.
And, as to your vague disgust with gay people, I can see your point. I could get my vague disgust for straight people from the incident downtown where a guy was knifed for the heinous crime of standing outside a gay coffee shop. Or from the friends I’ve had that have gotten the crap beaten out of them for kissing in public. Or for the constant abuse that openly gay people are subjected to in this society. But instead, I choose to judge each person individually, as best I can, based on their actions, and I try not to make determinations about their character based on factors such as race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation. I’m funny that way.
I don’t think Saint Zero’s recollection is completely accurate, as discussed below, but quite frankly, it’s ludicrously easy to become an Eagle Scout. Back in my day, the requirements were as follows:
Get X number of merit badges (IIRC 20-25), of which about half were requires and half were elective. As you could get 3-5 in a week at camp, this wasn’t that hard;
Spend a certain period of time at each rank (which is why I doubt Saint Zero’s recollection - from memory, I think the shortest time you needed to get Eagle was about 2 years); and
Be elected to various leadership positions in the troop. Again, not hard, particularly if your campaign slogan was “vote for me, I need to win if I’m going to advance.”
I was in for about two years, and all I needed was one more badge and to wait three more months before I got Eagle, when I left due to irreconcilable differences with the scoutmaster. My brother got his Eagle scout at age 15.
ahem, “especially”.
(I see upon preview that many of these points have been made alread – that’s what I get for leaving my desk for an hour. Anyway…)
I have mixed feelings on this. You need to separate the legality from the way the may feel about allowing your kids to be around homosexuals (Oh, the horror! :rolleyes: ) One on side, It’s clear that this policy is brought on by irrational fear of homosexuals, which I don’t at all agree with. On the other hand, they are a private organization and should be able to set their own policies (which they have done.)
I guess the line blurs, considering PLD’s comments. If they are allowed to use government facilities, then that throws a wrench into the already-fucked machinery.
So, from my perspective, they need to do one of two things:
Get rid of their stupid policy.
Stop taking any help (including use of facilities) from the government.
Really, I don’t know which one is better. Although I wish they’d get rid of the policy, that kind of treads into some sketchy grounds with me. If they’re going to change their policy, it should be because they as a group feel it is the right thing to do, not because they are pressured into doing it. The second one would allow them to be consistent and I wouldn’t have any problem on the legality of it.
Nope. Governmental organizations may deny access to organizations that discriminate in their membership on the basis of sex, race, national origin, creed, etc., etc., and, in some jurisdictions, sexual orientation has been added to the list.
People and groups certainly can discriminate as they see fit. The general population, in the form of the government, are not required to support that discrimination.
Look, BSA can exclude whoever they want to for whatever reasons they want to. The organization isn’t that great that it would be an unfillable loss to gays across the USA that they can’t join. Why would they want to join an organization that has such feelings about them anyway?
“But it’s wrong!”
Well, so’s a lot of things in this world. The government can’t step in and fix them all…nor should they.
I personally think it’s wrong that certain chapters are losing their charter for allowing gays in, but what am I gonna do about it? Not join their organization? Done and done!
But not allowing gays in doesn’t automatically mean gays = bad. So SGofA, I completely fail to see the point of your San Fransisco nun story. How in the world does that lend any support to your argument?
IANAL, but doesn’t the Equal Access Act mandate that schools have to charter any extracirricular club if they charter any such clubs? The law was enacted to open the schoolhouse doors to christian clubs and presumably some of them would discriminate against gay members.
BSA
This would come as an awful shock to that unreconstructed shirt-lifter Lord Baden-Powell.
Because circle jerks just don’t happen at Scout camp…riiiight.
I think xian clubs (at least most of 'em) would be able to avoid this issue because xian clubs don’t exclude gays - “c’mon in and we’ll cure yas.” I think this is the dividing line - so long as you do not overtly bar any person by race, etc., etc., the school must allow you access if they allow anyone access. Sure, I doubt many gays want to join certain groups, but so long as they are allowed to join the group, the EAA applies.
The dividing line is because the EAA runs up against equal protection - if you provide access to a group that overtly discriminates, you are funding a group that overtly discriminates, and the government can’t do that (if it has adopted sexual orientation as a protected class).
I haven’t looked at this stuff in a while, but I believe my recollections are accurate. I mean, when’s the last time the NAAWP could invoke the EAA to start meeting in schools?
I don’t think the EAA can be used to ban xians from using public facilities, because it would unconstitutional as so applied, under the Establishment Clause.
SpaceGhostofArrakis I’m not sure where you see a correlation between bird house building conversations (no mention of sex in the requirements for Bird Study) and the Family Life merit badge, where there is one reference to sex, it is “6.Do the following: <sniping ‘a’ because it is irrelevant to this discussion> b.plan and carry out a family council to include the following subjects, 1. How to avoid drugs and drug abuse. 2. Understanding the growing-up process, how the body changes, and making responsible decisions dealing with sex. 3. Personal and family finances.” It is my understanding that discussions of sex and sexuality are discouraged in the context of scouting activities. To paraphrase my understanding of the scout leaders pamphlet, IF a boy goes to a scoutmaster with a sex related question he is supposed to be referred to his parents or religous leader. Not because sex is bad, but because it is not a “scouting” issue.
My son had a horrible experience in cub scouts and ended up quitting. That troop of boys did not IMO live up to the ideals of the scout law, “A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.” Those boys were not exemplary of those ideals. Several years later an elementary school counselor and a college recruiter in separate conversations on a career day, both suggested that given my son’s future college and career choices he participate in scouting with the intent of achieving the Eagle Award. That, for his future plans, it would be a beneficial accomplishment. So, he started attending again, albeit a different troop, this time things went much better and it’s been an incredibly positive experience. I think I can say with a fair amount of certainty that he’s not encountered homophobia or racism. In fact even though his cultural heritage is a bit heinz 57, they tease him for red hair, fair freckled skin and big ears.
What I am trying to say is that I agree. It’s terribly frustrating for the boy to be literally within months of completing a worth while goal involving hours, days, and months of work over the course of four or five years that he began years ago when he was eleven and was hardly aware of his own sexuality and now have a portion of society decide that he’s a bigot because of his participation. Homosexuality played no part in his decision to join. I further venture to suggest that likewise for many of the boys who participate, it was not something they considered.
The scout law quoted above, we considered. The values therein are obviously worthy ones. The merit badges and awards we considered, again all worthy pursuits. Listed here arranged into 14 logical fields of activity (categories) as they appear in the BSA Pamphlet “Worksheet for Building a Merit Badge Counselor List” (No. 04439) [sub]
ARTS AND CRAFTS: ART, BASKETRY, BUGLING, LEATHERWORK, METALWORK, MUSIC, POTTERY, SCULPTURE, THEATER, WOOD CARVING
BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY: AMERICAN BUSINESS, ENTREPRENEURSHIP, PULP AND PAPER, SALESMANSHIP, TEXTILE
CONSERVATION : ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE, FISH AND WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT, FORESTRY, SOIL AND WATER CONSERVATION
HOBBIES : BACKPACKING, CAMPING, COIN COLLECTING, COLLECTIONS, COOKING, DOG CARE, GARDENING, HIKING, HOME REPAIRS, INDIAN LORE, MODEL DESIGN AND BUILDING, PETS, PIONEERING, RADIO, ROWING, STAMP COLLECTING
PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT:AMERICAN CULTURES, AMERICAN HERITAGE, CITIZENSHIP IN THE COMMUNITY, CITIZENSHIP IN THE NATION,CITIZENSHIP IN THE WORLD, COMMUNICATIONS, DISABILITIES AWARENESS, FAMILY LIFE, GENEALOGY, PERSONAL FITNESS, PERSONAL MANAGEMENT, PUBLIC SPEAKING, READING, SCHOLARSHIP, TRAFFIC SAFETY, WILDERNESS SURVIVAL
OTHER AWARDS
50-miler Award, Firem’n Chit, Historic Trails Award, Hornaday Awards, National Court of Honor Lifesaving and Meritorious Awards, Interpreter Strip, Paul Bunyan Woodsman, Boardsailing BSA, Leave No Trace, BSA Lifeguard, Snorkeling, BSA, Mile Swim, BSA, Totin’ Chip, World Conservation Award, Den Chief Service Award, Religious Emblems [/sub]
As you can see, nothing about pursuing or advocating bigotry of any kind. We’ve not encountered a single activity within the scouting program or discussion that was homophobic, racist or bigoted. (Although we have encountered all three in other aspects of our life activites.)
Did we ever become concerned about sexual abuse or pedophilia? You bet we did. However, as far as I know, homosexual men are less likely to be child predators than heterosexual men. Almost all of our son’s scout leaders were married men who were apparently heterosexual. However because I was molested as a child, it was an issue I was concerned with so he never attended a campout without his father, because we didn’t want to take the risk of child molestation, not with men of either orientation. For us, it was a child protection issue, not a sexual orientation issue.
My son participates in one of the most culturally, intellectually, and economically diverse units in our area. He was the senior patrol leader within six months even though he was a good four years younger than the oldest active troop members. He is a well rounded, compassionate, young man and has never to my knowledge participated in or been subjected to the bigotry that some many these days seem to feel is inherent in the scouting organization.
I think that not only are the national leaders of the scouting program behaving in an inappropriatly exclusionary bigoted manner, but the so are the individuals and organizations that claim a boy is an “ignorant homophobic racist bigot” because he chose to participate based on the advise of respected educational and community leaders.
You can’t. There are time limit and service requirements that would preclude being “just short of Eagle Scout” in one year. My son started at eleven and is fourteen and working on his ‘Eagle Project’ and will be among the youngest in his troop to have completed the award.
I’ve taken the liberty of moving points in your post around a bit, to try to make my response more cogent.
Quite frankly, I’ve never heard of anyone who is opposed to BSA’s policy on homosexuality ever, in print, on TV, on the radio, or in person, attack the Scouts themselves for their leaders’ policies. If your child has been attacked on these grounds, I apologize and condemn the idiot who did it.
I honestly don’t think that being involved in the BSA will make your child a homophobe, or will be anything but good for him. I doubt the issue will ever even come up in public - I don’t think you will have gay teens or adults knocking on the door of your troop. 'Course, it will come up amongst the kids - if your child’s experience is anything like my experience in BSA, all aspects of sex made up 95% of our discussions on camp-outs, etc. But that’s neither here nor there.
But the problem is, bigotry is inherent in the BSA. It is quite explicit - gays do not meet the BSA’s standards, and they will not be allowed to participate.
It’s a ticklish issue - the BSA is an organization that does good, but stands for bad principles. You are faced with the practical reality that it is doing good things for your child.
But you acknowledge that the BSA leadership is wrong about this issue. And I would guess that your child knows the BSA’s position on homosexuality. And I would guess that your child respects his scoutmaster. And the regional chairman. And so on up the line - I remember when a high mucketedy-muck made an appearance at a Jamboree or whathaveyou, we basically responded with awe. And I fear that, somewhere in the back of you child’s mind, the thought will pass through that that man, that man to be respected, thinks discrimination against gays is OK.
Sua, I’ve snipped your post as well, mostly for space and because I think you only intend me to respond to the ending paragraph. I’m not a skilled debater and I tend to avoid confrontations. I don’t have much experience, so if I don’t respond to something I should, please don’t take it as rudeness.
Yes my son knows the BSA position regarding homosexuality. He also knows our position, and he’s heard the public education systems position insofar as it was discussed in middle school sex ed classes and I’d be willing to bet lunch that he knows how his friends feel. Perhaps I’m delusional, but of those four influences, I’d like to think his parent’s is strongest.
He’s not fond of his scoutmaster at the time, but he does behave in a respectful manner. He’s a bit frustrated with the regional chairman at the moment because the man hasn’t returned his phone calls regarding a signature for a project, again he behaves in a respectful manner. I’d expect no less from him.
I acknowledge your fear and the possibility that it’s likely to occur to my son that, “that man to be respected, thinks discrimination against gays is OK.” However, he loves and respects his grandfather (who is a grumpy old bigot) too, but he does not respect his grandfathers bigoted opinion’s or comments and in fact rejects them, vocally at times. I concede that it’s an unpleasant example the national leaders you refer to are setting. I do not agree that every boy is going to agree and decide that discrimination against gays (or any other group) is OK, because they stand in awe of a man they see at Jamboree. If a boy has the moral strength to disagree with his doting grandfather on such (racial) issues, he can be selective about which traits (including opinions about sexual orientation) he ought to admire of a big who-ha man at Jamboree. However unlikely I think it is, there very well may be boys out there that form their opinions about how to behave towards homosexuals solely based on their participation in BSA, if/when that happens it’s a bad thing, I agree. I think its more likely that discriminatory behavior is a cumulative thing learned in more than one place or activity.
You know, when I was in school, I was a Girl Scout for five years-two years as a Brownie, and three as a Junior. I have to say I’m proud that Girl Scouts are more tolerant and open, and find the BSA position rather narrow minded and ignorant.
I haven’t seen anyone bring this up yet, so here it goes. Roughly one sixth of all scouts are Mormon. The Mormons are very anti-homosexual, to the point of threatening to leave the BSA is anything other than a hard-line anti-homosexual stance is taken. The BSA’s leadership is afraid that the Mormons going AWOL will devastate scouting. Nobody is too interested in making the decision that will end scouting, so they continue their discriminatory stance.
I think this is the dividing line - so long as you do not overtly bar any person by race, etc., etc., the school must allow you access if they allow anyone access. Sure, I doubt many gays want to join certain groups, but so long as they are allowed to join the group, the EAA applies.