There’s also a lot of “gee whiz” electronics to go wrong on the hybrids and the cost of getting those repaired (which will no doubt be necessary if you want the car to even run) is probably going to be expensive. Hybrids are wonderful vehicles, but the technology (at least as far as cars go, locomotives have had hybrid technology for a couple of decades now, IIRC) is still a bit unproven. If you do decide to buy one (and if you really like the car, I think you should, there’s nothing worse than buying a car you only sort of like), be prepared to dump it before the warranty runs out. That way if it turns out they’re really expensive to maintain without warranty (which is an unknown at this point) you’re not stuck with a car you can’t afford to replace, and can’t afford to repair.
We have some in the fleet at work and the wind blows them around something fierce. And I also think they are butt-ugly, but obviously YMMV.
Personally I’d go with the hybrid civic if you want an alternative. Roomy for a small car and a tried and true design that should last ( the hybrid technology being the only question mark ). But again, a test drive to compare them would definitely be in order.
- Tamerlane
Ford may bring the turbo-diesel Focus to the States if they can iron out some California emissions problems. It’s peppy and fuel efficient and they are generally just fun to drive. Unfortunately it won’t help Enderw24’s time constraints.
The problem with hybrids is the incosistency of fuel economy. Some people get great mpg numbers and some get really poor numbers. I would have to guess that the type of driving involved is the culprit. Maybe a poll of city/highway and hilly/flat terrain will reveal the culprit. The only negative article I read about referred to a person in Cincinnati Ohio which is hilly and full of the usually traffic SNAFU’s found in a large city. There are websites devoted to the topic of hybrid gas mileage such as Greenhybrid.com
There are gas engines that do fairly well and are cheaper so the ROI on investment should be compared to the best non-hybrid cars (not your old car). Take the total mileage cost plus the purchase price and divide it by miles driven over 3, 5 and 7 years and then factor in resale cost. That will give you an idea what the car is costing you over time. You should also include the expected maintenance cost of the battery pack as a separate item in your timeline comparison.
You can also look at high mileage cars with poor resale and buy a used car. As an example, my 2000 Saturn gets 33/36 mpg with an automatic and I don’t think the resale is very high. (it’s a very small car and is not practical for hauling 4 adults). 33 is combined driving and 36 is pure highway so you could expect a low of 30 around town.
If you’re really interested in “livin green” then buy a used hybrid with low miles.
If you’re still leaning that way, you might find this news story of interest. Note that it only involves the Prius, and there’s only been a small number of cases reported so far, but there’s nothing better than having your car stall in front of a semi, for getting your colon cleaned out. :eek: (I say that if you really want a hybrid, you shouldn’t let that stop you, since Toyota will no doubt quickly have the problem sorted out.)
The Camry is probably a better comparison vehicle than the Corolla.
I suggest you check out www.priuschat.com
The Prius’s rear seats fold down - combined with the hatchback makes it a decent cargo hauler.
quote:
Battery replacement costs have dropped to about $3,000 today from $10,000 or more in 2001 — about the same cost as replacing a worn-out gasoline engine in a conventional vehicle. Toyota has said the cost should continue dropping as battery volumes increase along with hybrid production.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20040623
quote:
The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won’t be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
Note that in CA and some other states the battery is warranteed for 10 years.
The Prius is by no means perfect, but is a a viable choice.
Oh, and diesels still have bad emissions (compared to regular cars, much less the Prius), even newer ones with cleaner fuel.
Brian
IIRC, some of the new ones easily meet emissions regulations for gassers, and I know that one of the reasons for stripping the sulphur out of diesel is so that they could put a catalytic converter on the engines.
I bought a Prius in January and I love it. The economic issues you are concerned about have either already been addressed or they can’t be addressed with any authority right now. So, I’ll stick to the comfort issues.
I’ve never had anyone complain about this and I have become the default driver among my friends. In fact, most people can’t stop talking about how roomy the car and backseat in particular is, especially since the car looks so small from the outside.
Yeah, I thought that would be a problem too. You’ll adjust to it very quickly. I don’t feel like my visability is any less than in a more traditionally designed car.
If you have a tendency to avoid the gas station, it will only get worse with a Prius. I drive in town a lot and I can usually go 2-3 weeks between fill ups. I don’t avoid the gas station as much as I just forget. In my previous car, it was habit to routinely check the tank. Now, I just forget to check. Luckily, you can be “running on empty” for quite a while, so I’ve never felt like I’m going to get stranded.
If it matters to you, the Prius has lots of storage. In addition to the cargo space in the back, there’s 2 glove compartments, the center console, a lower drawer in the center console, a storage space below the radio, a sunglass holder in the ceiling, map pockets in the door and a shallow cargo space below the rear deck.
As Tamerlane said, it does catch the wind more than you would expect. From the front, they are very aerodynamic, but they are pretty much flat on the sides.
Also, be prepared to take a lot of flak for buying one. As you can see from this thread, opinions on the Prius are very polarized. The quote from Sam Stone is the best reply I’ve found for the people that want to argue.
For me, buying a car is more than an economic decision. I haven’t regretted the Prius for a second.
Re the three-month waiting period: daowajon got hers in two weeks.
I’d like to echo what **Red Stilettos ** said. I love my Prius. I got it in April, after a wait of about 6 weeks. I started looking into the possibility of purchasing one in Feb. 2004 and researched and considered and talked to people. I was unsure. But ultimately I got what I wanted, plus all the bells and whistles. So, for what it’s worth, I love my Pruis.
:smack: Prius!!!
And I even previewed!
EDIT: This was posted by Arwin, who sometimes shares a computer with Maastricht. But not very often these days for Straightdope, so he didn’t pay attention. Sorry love!
—begin of original post, as stated, written by Arwin –
I’m actually getting one in a few months now. A white one - somehow that color is just great on this car. Apparently the European version is slightly different from the U.S. version, in that you can enable the electricity only option, which you aren’t allowed in the U.S. for some reason I believe. There might be one or two other differences.
In the Netherlands you get a few thousand worth of tax-break on this car, which makes it a fairly good deal even compared to normal cars, without taking fuel consumption into account, especially if you wanted an auto transmission anyway (which I do, roads are rather busy here ).
Interesting note: apparently there’s a Prius taxi in Vancouver which was one of the first known to have driven 200.000 miles, after which Toyota offered to exchange it so they could study its durability. The results were that the batteries at this point in time still showed no signs of getting tired.
Also interesting is that the brake pads on this car, because the braking energy is cleverly recycled, wear about half as fast as in normal cars.
Heck, I’ve studied and read on this car so much now, that once I get the car, I can open an ‘Ask a Prius Driver’ thread.
(and yes, I’ve also come across a few sites claiming that the Prius is less environmentally friendly than a Hummer, etc.)
I didn’t realize the waiting list was that long!
Heh. Reply, yes, it’s a zombie thread. I e-mailed a link to this old thread to Arwin with a note along the lines of: … “look what you posted in 2005, and now you’re getting a Prius yourself”. And Arwin jumped in and posted, bubbling with enthusiasm.
FWIW, he really ought to start an “ask the Prius driver”-thread. He knew more about it then the car-salesman.
Be careful if you use the tax credit as a reason for buying the Prius (or another Hybrid) vehicle. My parents already owned one Prius, and based on their love of the first one, replaced their 2nd car with a 2nd Prius, looking forward to the tax credit. They found out that due to the Alternative Minimum Tax, they won’t be getting either of the Prius tax credits they were hoping for…
So…buyer beware… you may want to speak to your tax adviser before purchasing if this is an important part of your decision-making process.
Everyone I know who has one loves it, and would buy another one.
Which matches with Consumers Reports: they list this as the highest score they have ever seen on the “would you buy this car again?” question – around 95%, as I recall.
More cons-
You have to buy from a Toyota Dealer, who know he has you over a barrel and will rat-fuck you like there’s no tommorow. Yes, I know some folks don;t like the negotiation part, but here it isn’t being replaced by “no haggle” it is being replaced by “rat-fuck”. Bad.
Toyota has sold so many Hybrids the Tax Credit on their cars is half what it “should be”. (Not so for other car companies)
Now- all those Pros are also available on a Honda Civic Hybrid, with none of the Cons I have listed. Thus, I suggest the Honda Civic Hybrid.
When we compare the price/cost on 'hybrid vs regular gas engine" we have to figure in a few more things:
Good: The tax credit. Very very nice. Yes, for a few, the AMT will come into effect.
Bad: just comparing the “MSRP” is bogus. See, you’ll pay MSRP+ for a Prius, but get a significant discount off a Honda Civic. Thus the difference is a lot more than just “MSRP”.
Yea, but the Civics back seats don’t fold down.
With the fold down seats and hatchback the Prius makes a better cargo hauler.
The hybrid drive on the Prius is more integrated into the system then the Civic (The Civic cannot run on electric alone).
But the Civic is certainly a viable choice.
Brian
The other alternative is a diesel.
I just recently bought a 2006 Jetta Diesel, and man, this thing is SWEET. On the highway it blows away the mileage of the Prius. I consistently get 55 miles per gallon on the highway. In the city I get about 40-45.
Right now I’m buying diesel at the pump. 11% biodiesel, which helps the environment, our economy, and our dependence on foreign fuel. This summer I’m going to tinker around making my own biodiesel, saving money as well.
No tax credit, but I love, love, love, love my little diesel.
How do you find gas stations that serve diesel? What if you’re traveling to a new place far away?
Diesel is only slightly harder to find than regular gas. I used to drive a car that I wouldn’t put anything less than 93 octane in. THAT was hard to find.
Remember, semis use diesel, so there’s stations all over, especially off the interstates. Biodiesel is harder to find, but hopefully that’s growing in popularity.
It has happened once or twice that I’ll be at the diesel pumps with semis to my left, right, and behind me. My poor little Jetta looks tiny.
Plus I can go 600 miles on a tank, so I don’t have to fill up often. But finding diesel has never been an issue.