Hybrid Cars

Howdy, I’m new here! Here’s my dilemma.

I’m beginning to think about replacing my '94 Saturn, and am intrigued by what I’ve read about hybrid cars. You all seem like a knowledgeable bunch, so I wondered if anyone here owns or has driven one and can tell me about their experience. What I’m mainly concerned about is reliability, whether they require much extra or special maintenance, is the general driving experience much different from regular cars, etc.

The specific model I have my eye on is the Toyota Prius. I haven’t test driven one yet (I suppose I should start there, but car salespeople intimidate me—hence the Saturn).

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help you can give.

A good question: I may be in the market to find myself a car within the next year or so, and those se are questions I intend to be asking… I’m hoping that the $$$ I’ll save on fuel will offest any higher costs in other areas.

Another question (or two) to toss out with the ones you have: how are the insurance rates for the hybrid cars doing at the moment? And, how hard has it been to find an independant garage to work on your hybrid (or even if you’ve been able to find any)?


<< Knock knock. Who’s there? Cargo. Cargo who? Cargo beep beep! >>

There are reviews and good links on this page at the Car Talk web site.

I have no personal experience with hybrids, but I do know that the Toyota Prius has been available in Japan for 5 years now. I think they’ve had time to work out the initial bugs. The Honda Insight has only been available for about 2 years. Toyota now makes 3 different hybrid cars and one bus, so they must be committed to this technology. Honda also came out with their second hybrid recently.

This ended up being longer than I intended, sorry for the verbosity.

I have a 2002 Prius, and I love my car. We first heard about them when they were taking pre-orders for the 2000, and would have ordered it then except that a) it didn’t have cruise control yet, and b) I wanted to wait until they’d had a model-year or two to shake the bugs out. I ordered mine last August and picked it up in January. I absolutely love it, have I said that already?

Reliability: I’ve only had mine for six months so I can’t say how it’s going to do over the long term, but we have had only one incident in those six months, and that was our fault: we let it get too low on gas, and it shut down. I’m due for my six-month maintenance check any day now, which is covered by the dealership.

Extra or special maintenance: Not by you, the owner. The batteries do not require external charging, as they are recharged when you brake or coast, or when the engine is producing more torque than it needs to power the car. The dealership strongly recommends that you take it back to them for service, as it’s still a relatively new thing on the market and Tony’s Garage might not know how to safely deal with the electrical system. (They also told me that whenever they work on a Prius - even if it’s just changing the oil - they wear rubber suits to ground themselves. I don’t know if I believe that.)

General driving experience: It’s really not that different from a regular car. You don’t have to change your driving habits at all, although if you want to maximize your mileage there are a few tricks you pick up. The car can accelerate up to highway speeds right along with the rest of the crowd, and I’ve driven it over 80 without feeling like I was pushing it too hard.

One of the neat things it frequently does is shut down the engine/motor completely when you’re stopped at a light. This doesn’t waste power idling, and it starts up right away when you touch the gas again. I have a friend who got really freaked out by this though - he thought my car was stalling.

The car has plenty of headroom and can seat four adults comfortably. It doesn’t have power seats and it doesn’t have trunk access from the back seat (it can’t - the battery compartment is in the way) but those are the only two things I wish it did come with.

You don’t have to think at all about whether to use the gas engine or the electric motor, because the Hybrid System does all that for you and automatically adjusts things. It really only has three gears: Drive, Reverse, and Engine Braking. It does as much as it can with the electric motor and uses the gas engine as an assist when you’re accelerating or driving at highway speeds.

Insurance rates: I’ve got State Farm and they didn’t seem any higher or lower than usual for a new car. I just got my statement and can’t remember the numbers offhand, but if you really want to know, you can email me and I’ll look it up.

Independant garage: I haven’t looked, because the dealership’s going to do all my servicing free for the first couple years, and I figure I’ll just take it to them.

Other stuff: It’s got a counter that keeps track of your cumulative MPG since the last time you reset it. The best MPG I’ve gotten so far is 44.8 over 800 or so miles. I accidently reset it the other day, and I’m almost back up to that - 43.4 for 45 miles. The 800 was mostly surface street driving and some freeway commuting.

Be prepared for people to want to look at it and ride in it. I’ve had a lot of people ask to look under the hood. There’s a big silver boxlike thing in there that says “Toyota Hybrid System” that I tell them is the Flux Capacitator. Or the Main Deflector Array, depending on the crowd.

Do not let it run out of gas. It’s not designed to run on the electric motor alone, and if you do run out of gas, it will give you just enough power to let you coast to a safe place, and then once you shut it off it won’t let you turn it back on. You get all these big warning symbols flashing on the screen. It does warn you when you are low on fuel, and usually gives you adequate notice that you are low, but during warmer weather the bladder inside the gas tank shrinks slightly (or so I have been told) and you actually have less capacity than you think you do. The workaround is to fill it before it gets that low, I guess.

Any other questions? :slight_smile:

Honda is coming out with a (much more usable) Civic hybrid this year. The Insite is basically a 2 person car with little cargo space, the Civic should be much better as a daily driver and compare pretty well with the Toyota.

Nice summary, Jay. I’m thinking seriously about keeping my 1990 Camry for a few more years, then getting a new Prius in 2005 or 2006.

One question re; the “three gears” bit. What exactly do you mean by “Engine braking” ? Does the Prius lack the typical PRND21 automatic transmission?

We just bought a 2002 Prius on Sunday, and JayLa speaks the truth. We’ve put about 300 miles on it, with no complaints whatsoever.

When you start it up, the gas engine will fire and run for a little bit, then if you just sit there, it’ll shut down. Then you can motor off on just the electric power alone, nice and quiet. The kids have taken to calling it, “golf-carting”.

The “engine braking” gear is just that…if you’re going downhill, for instance, with your foot off the accelerator, you can shift it into “B”, which provides some extra engine braking effect. I don’t know if it’s true engine braking or not…I doubt it…but it’ll keep you from having to tap-dance on and off the brake pedal.

We also looked at the Civic hybrid, but the Prius just gave us a better feel. A major part of that was the longer warranty: 8 years/100K miles, vs 3 years/36K miles.

I take back what I said earlier…I do have one complaint. We decided to get the GPS nav system, which is a great toy, but it’s just a freakin’ MAP! I mean, other cars on the road… buildings…trees…pedestrians…what about them? How in the hell am I supposed to ‘navigate’ around THEM? :stuck_out_tongue:

One last thing: In California, there are a couple different ways to get government grants to assist in the purchase, depending on where you live. There’s a State program administered by the California Energy Commission, or there are locally administered programs, too. Unfortunately, you can’t add a State program to a local program. Still, we got $2K back. And Uncle Sam is gonna give us another $2K come tax time.

It’s got PRNDB, so I probably should have said it’s got only three driving gears, instead of the four (RD21) a normal automatic transmission has.

Someone else can probably explain engine braking better than I can, but I think it’s basically a cutoff that keeps the engine turning, but prevents that power from going on to turn the wheels. For example, when you’re going down hills, so that you aren’t sending power to the wheels while braking/coasting. I think it’s intended to substitute for shifting down into 2 or 1.

My mom works for a Honda dealership, and according to her one of the guys worked out the gas savings on the car and according to her, the way he figured it you could buy a less expensive car that got average gas mileage and come out ahead, because the gas savings weren’t large enough to compensate for the Insight’s higher price.

She didn’t mention anything about the guys wearing rubber suits to change the oil. If I think about it, I’ll ask her this weekend when I talk to her and see if she knows any more about the cars.

Thanks, JayLa, ricepad and Tuckerfan. That’s just the kind of thing I was looking for. It’s good to know your experiences are mostly positive.

JayLa, I’ll try to remember the “Flux Capacitor” thing. Maybe I’ll tell people it’s the Oscillation Overthruster. How obscure is that?

h.

Think it over very carefully before you buy.
I drive a VW Golf station wagon with a 1.9Liter diesel motor and I averaged 55MPG for the last 6000 miles. That is in city, on the highway, and poking around in the hills out where I live. I commute 47 miles (one way) to work in it. If I tromp on it, it will get up and BOOGIE. I loaded three picnic tables (with folding legs) and six benches (tables and benches at the same time) into the sucker last weekend and shut the hatch on them. The motor is quiet, and doesn’t knock like you would expect a diesel to do (it has computer controlled injection pumps in the injectors, so that the injection timing and fuel amount and mixture are individually controlled for each cylinder to avoid knocking and inefficient fuel use.) It doesn’t pour out black smoke like diesels used to do. Top speed is higher than I have ever driven it. The speedometer is marked up to 240 KMH (150 MPH.) I usually run at about sixty MPH on the highway, on rare occasions 70mph. Since it redlines at 4500 RPM, and is only turning at 2300 RPM at 70MPH, I expect it will get pretty close to the top end of the speedometer.
Hybrids have “cool factor” out the wazoo, and my Golf looks pretty dull and unimpressive, but it makes a hell of a lot better a family car than any hybrid I ever heard of.

And now, most appropriately, YMMV.

Well I bought a Honda Insight in 2000. Is a great car. I have yet to have any problem what so ever with it. If you are not looking to have more than two people in the car it is nice. I Can pack for a trip easy with the room in the back hatch. Granted it is only gear/luggage for two people. I have no plans of helping someone move with it :slight_smile:
My 0-60 time is listed as 9 seconds (I think it in reality is better than that) Top speed is 105 mph.
I average 55.4 mpg in the city and 70 mpg on the interstate.
My insurance is around 54 bucks a month full coverage (allstate).
I paid 18K for my hybrid. With a 6 year full ocverage warrenty. Depending how far you will be driving will depend on how soon you will see a cost savings.
There are only a few gripes.
No ashtray to hold loose change. No cigarette lighter, just a plug in for accessories.

I am happy with it all in all. It has been reliabel, we shall see how it holds up better with a few more years of driving.

This is a subject near and dear to my heart.

I currently drive a 1996 Tercel, and I love it to pieces. But it’s got some miles on it, and I’ve been eyeballing new cars. The single most important thing to me about a car is it’s gas mileage. Seriously. Well, maybe the price first, but MPG is extremely important.

I’ve been getting 30-35 MPG on the Tercel, and I would like my next car to equal that or beat it if possible. With mileage that good at the outset, it’s tough to beat.

My first target was the Prius. There is a Yahoo group for Prius owners and lovers, and I subscribed to that for a while. Mostly they were fanatical about their cars, so of course they all raved about how great the cars are. One thing I noticed is that several of them had tire problems - they wore out quickly, perhaps from being balanced improperly. I think you could rectify it by making sure your tires were balanced in a certain way, so I wouldn’t call it a deal breaker. But you may want to check that group out, and see what kind of issues they are having - some of them have probably had their cars going on 2 years.

Then I discovered the Golf TDI (Mort Furd, I’m insanely jealous!), and that’s what I have my eye on right now. I like the feature of having a hatchback - I had one before and loved how much stuff I could get in, and I can’t fit nearly as much stuff in the Tercel’s trunk. (incidentally, JayLa, thanks for mentioning there’s no trunk access from the back seat - that’s pretty important for me) I only drive automatic, and the Golf’s TDI MPG for auto is pretty comparable to the Prius, within a few miles per gallon, anyway.

Recently I joined a TDI discussion group to find out how diesel engines differ from gas - I want to make sure that whatever car I end up getting doesn’t nickel and dime me to death on repairs,upkeep, etc.

Regardless, both these cars are attractive. Toyota is great in my book in terms of making quality product (I’ve had ZERO issues with the Tercel). The Golf (unlike the Jetta, which is all over the place) is a fairly unique car on the road in SoCal, and I’ve got plenty of stations selling diesel nearby (at a cheaper price per gallon than gas right now, I might add).

Keep us posted on whether you take the hybrid plunge. I’m so straddled on this fence it hurts!

Thanks for the replies, guys. scr4, I finally got to check out the link you posted. A lot of good info (and entertaining, to boot). As far as the Golf diesel goes, I hadn’t really considered it. Of course the Prius is super-ultra-double-plus low emissions (or whatever the EPA term is) which is also a big plus to me.

I have my Friday afternoons free for a few weeks now, due to summer hours at work, so this might be the week I actually go and see one for myself.

I’ll let you know.

h.

Anyone drive one during MN winters? I’m curious how they hold up in sub zero weather. Does the heater work good? Defrost etc.

Thi is interesting. I’ve also been thinking about getting a Prius, and last weekend I finally went to the dealer to take a look, and I felt very cooped up inside. I’m 6 feet tall, I don’t need to have a giant gas guzzler, but I felt cramped in the Prius.

I do a lot of highway driving, and the dealer said that the energy savings are primarily at low speeds, when the battery does the work. He said that at highway speeds, you’re using gas like a regular car.

So I was disappointed because I was very much looking forward to a Prius, but a new Camry is actually slightly less expensive and is much nicer (other than that it’s totally gas-dependent).

Thi is interesting. I’ve also been thinking about getting a Prius, and last weekend I finally went to the dealer to take a look, and I felt very cooped up inside. I’m 6 feet tall, I don’t need to have a giant gas guzzler, but I felt cramped in the Prius.

I do a lot of highway driving, and the dealer said that the energy savings are primarily at low speeds, when the battery does the work. He said that at highway speeds, you’re using gas like a regular car.

So I was disappointed because I was very much looking forward to a Prius, but a new Camry is actually slightly less expensive and is much nicer (other than that it’s totally gas-dependent).

Thi is interesting. I’ve also been thinking about getting a Prius, and last weekend I finally went to the dealer to take a look, and I felt very cooped up inside. I’m 6 feet tall, I don’t need to have a giant gas guzzler, but I felt cramped in the Prius.

I do a lot of highway driving, and the dealer said that the energy savings are primarily at low speeds, when the battery does the work. He said that at highway speeds, you’re using gas like a regular car.

So I was disappointed because I was very much looking forward to a Prius, but a new Camry is actually slightly less expensive and is much nicer (other than that it’s totally gas-dependent).

FYI Obfusciatrist and I purchased a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid two months ago. We considered the Insight (didn’t want to buy a two-seater that looked like a suppository) as well as the Prius (sorry folks, I think its butt is … well, butt-ugly), and chose the Civic Hybrid. We probably have almost 8000 miles on it now, and we love it a whole lot. VERY pleased with it.

Good for you Baglady :slight_smile:

Oh I am 6 foot 3 and have more than enough room in the Insight.