Imagine you are president and Putin nukes Kyiv

Let’s add the paragraph before -

Bolding mine.

So one of these is ONLY maybe 5 to 10% of what could potentially kill every living being in the world.

Not really a big deal development in the context of Russia’s “already considerable destructive potential” …

(Given that each of the ten warheads on the middle be targeted at a population center not sure how that professor concludes most would be outside the blast and fallout radius.)

But yes it would take more than just one of those to kill all living beings on earth.

Question: how many warheads (multiple warheads on many individual missles) do you think would end up exploding in a first strike to destroy followed by counter launch off all possible left? Under a couple of hundred or over?

No, they would have warning, obviously. And they are likely at very high alert. The systems and command and control are meant to be quick and survivable for exactly that reason. But this is a unique and untested situation. There’s likely to be hesistation, screw up, and failure. American subs can launch on a depressed trajectory and hit Moscow within a few minutes. A few nukes going off at high altitude can disable almost all electrical devices in the whole country and there might only be 2-3 minutes warning on such an attack. The military communications are designed to survive this scenario, but it’s untested in the real world and at least some communications will be lost, adding to the confusion.

There will be a variety of human factors that can go wrong here. People can be in denial or disbelief. The right people needed to launch may be unavailable or hard to reach, especially in a rigid autocratic society. Crumbling Soviet infrastructure has a lot of potential failure points. It is likely that their dead hand/perimeter automatic launch system has never actually been activated because it’s a bit crazy and it’s more of a threat than an actual weapon anyone wants to use.

The US Navy is quite good at tracking Russian subs and there’s a good chance we could kill all of their boomers right before our strike. Russia’s nuclear air forces are rarely on high alert or that big a concern and will likely be destroyed on the ground. The strategic rocket forces are the real threat in this scenario, and there’s a decent chance you can pin down a significant fraction of their launch capabilities via direct attack.

The poster I was responding to suggests there’s no rush to nuke Russia because we can always get them with a second strike. It’s true that our second strike is likely to be more effective than theirs, because our infrastructure is more effective and we’re much better at hiding our boomers from them than they are from us. But in this scenario, you’re letting them have all the advantage of being the attackers. Having a plan, coordination, having all their forces ready and with orders. Not being the ones being confused, attacked, reacting.

Compare the situations with the subs alone - in one scenario, a US attack sub tracking a Russian missile sub sinks it a minute before the general attack starts. In the second scenario, with Russia issuing the first strike, the US attack sub maybe starts to suspect the Russian sub is setting up for launch, but it may not know and may not have orders to commit an act of war to sink it until after the missiles start being launched. That hesitation is likely enough to let a few birds fly.

In a US first strike scenario, if they get lucky/have a good plan, time their attack to be the worst time for Russian leadership, bring our best strategies to bear, it’s likely we destroy most of the Russian nuclear forces. In a Russia first strike scenario, they are likely to get more than half of their nuclear forces off. Saying “we shouldn’t first strike because we always have the option to second strike” vastly understates the difference between those two scenarios.

Sounds overly optimistic to me. Under the most favorable outcome of your rosey scenario, how many Russian nukes successfully destroy US targets?

The most optimistic scenario? Zero. A successful decapitation strike that renders command unable to respond, or some fundamental flaw in their strategic launch systems manifests itself, or the people in charge of responding refuse to do it in a realistic time window. Unlikely, but these are things that can potentially happen when you’re the target of a first strike.

Realistically optimistic? I’m not really qualified to say. If I had to guess, maybe 200-300 warheads.

That’s a 95-97% decapitation rate. Unlikely, but let’s run with that. 200 nuclear bombs go off in our most strategic targets. Millions killed outright, milions more die in the next year. Infrastructure demolished. Food, energy, transportation, manufacturing wrecked. How is that an acceptable tradeoff? Sure, Russia is vaporized, but we suffer for 50-100 years.

Realistic estimate is 500 to 1000 war heads. Maybe 200 years to recover to a stable, growing economy.

We must do better.

An acceptable tradeoff over the scenario where we let Russia launch a first strike because we can always get a second one off? That was the scenario I was responding to.

Yes, I’m aware that getting hit with 200 nukes is not desirable. Many alternatives are worse.

Also, 95-97% decapitation rate is sort of misleading, as I assume you’re just looking at the total warhead numbers. Most of those warheads are in stockpiles and aren’t strategic weapons. They’re things like gravity bombs and artillery shells and they’re in storage, not on active launchers. Those weapons are unlikely to ever be used in an all out exchange because by the time they’re brought to readiness their launch platforms will already be dead.

Almost all of the concern for the US is in the SLBMs and ICBMs. I think it’s not unreasonable to think the US could sink the Russian missile boats that were out at sea in a surprise attack, as only a few are out on patrol and the USN is extremely good at tracking them.

You asked for an optimistic scenario. I’m not suggesting we launch a first strike tomorrow. I’m saying that if it seems inevitable that nuclear confrontation happens, being the side to launch the first strike has huge advantages, and the other poster’s idea that we have no incentive to launch a first strike because we can always launch a second strike is pretty absurd.

As bad as getting hit with 200-400 warheads would be, it’s a lot better than getting hit with 1000+

And how do you manage a “successful decapitation strike” in the proposed situation, that Russia has already nuked one city?

Do you really think Putin will say, “Okay, that’s great, Kyiv is glass, everyone stand down, we’re not not likely to need any more nuclear strikes in the near future”?

It’s just barely possible to think you might, if everything goes exactly right, conduct a successful decapitation strike against a Russia that is fat dumb and happy. To pull this off against a Russia that is already on full alert is much, much harder.

That is a fair point. You might have to do it before Russian mobilization if you had rock solid intelligence that they were going to go that route, which I admit is full of all sorts of hazards.

Yes, 1000 warheads makes the ashes bounce higher than 200.

People vastly overestimate the destructive capability of nuclear warheads (earlier in the thread someone said one nuke could destroy texas - you’re off by several orders of magnitude there). Play around with it yourself: NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein

Treating all scenarios in which you get nuked as being equal is going to lead to irrational strategy decisions. There’s a huge difference between 200 warheads and 1000+

Additionally, for the most part nuclear warheads have been getting smaller over time with less destructive power.

It’s a interesting site. The RS-28 Sarmat can be equipped with 10-15 warheads and according to one article the warheads can total 50 megatons. Using NUKEMAP, this won’t cover Texas, but it might affect 2/3 of the metro areas.

I’m not sure where the claims of destroying Texas or France originally came from, but it certainly shows up in a lot of articles.

I think it comes from the usual misreading/oversimplification that happens when technical topics are discussed in the media. I read a while back that one Satan II can carry twelve separately-targetable MIRVs, which split at or shortly after apogee and are distributed to different impact points. This would be sufficient to hit “the key targets” in Texas: half a dozen major metropolitan areas, a couple of petroleum hubs, a couple of military bases, etc. This was then kerfuffled into “one Satan II can destroy Texas!” You know how it goes.

If all of the targets are destroyed (namely the people as well as all the factories, infrastructure, and military assets), then Texas is gone, certainly at least as far as making a difference in the war. (Plus, a systematic destruction mission does not consist of only a single ICBM.) Fun as it would be to also throw in a 10-gigaton Teller-type super bomb, just because why not, one problem with that concept has always been a suitable delivery system.

One missile, not one warhead. Multiple warheads on a missile. The cite that debunked the Texas claim used Professor Malcolm Chalmers from the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) as the source. That expert also stated that in the hundreds of warheads range killing every living being in the world is a realistic potential outcome.

Your scenarios seem to mostly get into that “hundreds” range. All dead once or twice over. One much better than the other?

Yeah, it would probably be merely the end of civilization in North America, not the end of the world, you nervous nellies! /s

Sure, lots of people might survive the initial attack, but look at how badly the pandemic has screwed things up. Even with “only” a million or so deaths, and no infrastructure destruction at all, we’ve seen years-long disruptions to our supply chains for all sorts of material items. How much worse would it be if it were 50 million people dead, with the cities they lived in turned to craters?

We’d be looking at massive collapses of our society. Transportation would be disrupted nation-wide, and what transportation that was possible would become far riskier due to all sorts of issues. People in Iowa would drown in tons of unused wheat and corn while people in New York and Illinois were starving to death. Oil wouldn’t flow to refineries, and gasoline, diesel and natural gas wouldn’t flow to end-users. And even if you had a horse and buggy to fall back on, all that does is make you a target for everyone else out there.

In 1945 the United States had exactly two bombs and dropped them both, so yeah, that was a full nuclear war, as full as it could be at the time. Which has zero relevance to today.

Yes, it was all the bombs in the world.

For that week in August.

The Manhattan Project wasn’t set up to make two atomic bombs. It was designed to be a production line. They were making a new bomb at a rate of every ten days in August and were ramping up production so they could build a new bomb at a rate of every five days by the end of 1945.

If Japan hadn’t surrendered, the United States had already designated Yokohama and Kokura as the next targets that would be bombed. (In fact, Kokura was the intended target of the second bombing. But August 9 was a cloudy day over Kokura so the crew decided to bomb Nagasaki, which was the backup target.)

I’m sorry but you’ve lost all credibility with this line of argument.

If Germany and Italy had not already surrendered in May of '45 and September of '43 respectively, you might have had a point about dropping nuclear bombs in Europe. But they both surrendered before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The United States was at the time in a military alliance (the Allies, formally the “United Nations”) with Great Britain, the Soviet Union, and even Mexico, since 1942. Paris was liberated in 1944 and entered into the formal alliance that December. Shanghai may have been in consideration for bombing at some future point, though I fail to see the strategic value compared to another city on the isle like Nigata or Kyoto. Japan entered negotiations just days after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, rendering any further bombs in that country moot.

~Max

You do understand it’s not my argument, right?

Chronos is the one who said that if Putin launched one nuclear attack, he would not stop. After he launched the first one, he would just keep launching them at every city in the world outside of Russia.

I was applying that same theory to Truman to show how absurd it was.

No, it does not require us to fight along side them to consider them an ally. An entente does not require you to fight alongside them, merely cooperate. Considering them an ally doesn’t even require a formal agreement. Like it or not, Russia sees NATO as something analogous to that in the current conflict. If I were them, it’d seem an entirely reasonable position.

You made the change, it’s your argument to prove Truman is relevant to the current situation.