[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
magellan01, we meet again. 
This is the first time in a while I’ve dared to set foot in GD, as I have no formal debate skills whatsoever. So if I mess up, realize I’m not intentionally being an idiot.
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If any of us did it intentionally, we truly would be idiots. 
BUt I think you should not worry so much. I think you do a great job of addiing to the debate. Particularly a post like the one I’m responding to. One poster’s opinion, anyway.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
I think I see what you’re getting at here. Is there some sort of formally recognized definition of ‘‘human rights’’? What are they and whose standards? Because this is an issue that has always, to me, seemed to be entirely subjective. You are saying that everyone has the right to strive for a better position, but that nobody has the right to expect that position to be guaranteed? Is this based on any standardized perspective on human rights, or just your own? (genuinely curious.)
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Well, I look back to what I learned about Natural Law Theory. But I think the important thing is to remember, for me anyway, is that human rights as discussed in the D of I (and are what we usually mean in these discussions) are very fundemental. They are what can be enjoyed sans society. They come with the individual existing as an entity. This is important, as they are NOT rights given by the state or a monarch, which is why they are inalienable, i.e., inseperable from the individual. In fact, the very reason of stating them is not to grant them, but to remind people that they can’t be taken away. A play I enjoy that explores the subject is Antigone, by Sophocles. It’s a quick read and I recommend it.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
One thing I can confirm from my studies and anecdotally-- Mr. Moto’s assertion that emigration has crippled Mexico’s development as a nation. I cannot stress enough how dependent Mexico is on the U.S. The vast majority of the people I spoke with have no concept of the idea of ‘‘Mexico’s future as a nation.’’ It is about the ‘‘future of my family’’, and in most cases it involves learning English and moving to the U.S. (or Canada.) In the state where I lived, 25% of the people had lived in the U.S. in the previous three months. In the farming community where I lived, 90% of the original community members didn’t even live there anymore. I’m talking abandoned houses all around–most living (legally, I might add) in the United States, and paying annual or biannual visits to their hometown.
This has had a severely detrimental effect on Mexico overall. It has created a labor/land vacuum that drug dealers have not hesitated to exploit. Where Mexico’s government has failed to create structure, drug traffickers have. There are entire communities dependent on the drug trade to handle issues like housing, medical care, and other public services that the Mexican government has failed to provide. There is an all-out dirty war being fought between the *narcotraficantes *and the police officials, most of which are corrupt.
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I’m so glad you shared this. I’ve made general statements about it in the past, but I didn’t have your first-person account. But I think it clear that Mexico, the country, does it’s citizens a great disservice. The corruption is rampant and seems to get in the way of the changes it needs. I really think that the best thing for the country in the long run would be to seal it. Let it boil and let the revolution that is evidently needed happen.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Why so much immigration? It is not as simple as ‘‘Free Trade destroyed Mexico’’ by any means. But there is a very clear correlation between the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade in 1986 and serious economic change in Mexico. The agricultural sector suffered, and has been suffering ever since. Work shifted from the agricultural sector in southern Mexico to the maquinas (foreign-owned factories) of the north. The majority of these are along the border to allow easy transport of goods from the U.S., tax and subsidy free. Basically all they provide is labor, because all materials are imported in, and all products are exported out. These factories offer no real economic growth for Mexico.
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What would you think if similar factories were spread throughout Mexico. It seems that would be much more helpful. Yes? No?
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Urban Mexicans tend to argue that the agricultural sector could hardly offer economic growth either–and there may be a great deal of truth to that. I don’t have any answers about what’s ‘‘best’’ for Mexico, other than, ‘‘actual honest to god investment by Mexicans that employs Mexicans.’’ And maybe a little old fashioned American capitalism.
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I don’t think anyone can argue with that.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Concepts like ‘‘illegality’’ are moot to a desperate Mexican. They don’t regard or trust their own government (for very good reason), so it’s less likely they’ll regard or trust the U.S. government and its laws. They just want money to feed their families.
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This, assuming it is correct, as I do, is a very astute insight. It would be ionteresting to see a study done that explored how Mexicans view their government, law enforcement, etc. and how Americans view those things.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
I don’t think people really grasp how severe of a problem this U.S. undercutting of Mexican goods is. It really sunk in for me when I was doing my reading for class one day–reading about a community of 18,000 people who live in the dumps of Mexico city. These people are about as low on the social meter as you can get–they live in homes built into dump heaps like little caves, and they scavenge for garbage to sell.
And one women commented, ‘‘Now they are importing the salvaged garbage from the U.S. and selling it for cheaper. We can’t compete.’’
For garbage. They can’t compete with the U.S. garbage salvaging industry.
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Wow. Just WOW. I think it’s time for that revolution.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
I don’t know. I enjoy working in the community and I love speaking Spanish and studying Mexican culture. I was born to do this work. Am I supposed to ask every person their legality status before I agree to help them? What else am I supposed to do?
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Some times the hardest thing to do is to not help someone. Especially if you are an empathetic sort. But if you reward ( your services) bad behavior you are tacitly encouraging it. I don’t really know what your options are, but I wish that people here would not make it easier for illegals. They should make it as difficult as possible. They only think I thiink we owe them is emergency medical care. This is an unpopular notion on these boards, but I stand by it. The more difficult it is to come here illegally or to stay here illegally, the more people will stay in Mexico (and elsewhere) until they can come here legally. IN the mean time, maybe the boil will begin. Particularly if Mexico starts to lose the funds sent back from the U.S>
Ideally I’d like to tackle the issue on both fronts–do community work AND research at the same time? I believe the research will go a lot farther toward actually finding a solution to the problem–but most people who have a hard and immobile opinion on this matter really have no clue what Mexico is up against. From an outside observer’s standpoint, it almost seems like a cultural instinct to fail as a nation.*
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What would you think about the study I mentioned? I thin it interesting and could be instructional as to understanding the different mindsets of the two cultures. If they are, in fact, different.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
*So this doesn’t seem like I completely pulled it out of my ass–my husband commented that cultures with higher interdependence tend to have higher corruption. This is because the family is the first priority, perhaps transcending the value of fairness and equality? Just a thought.
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I think your husband is onto something. Look at the Mafia, or the Irish before them. It seems like it is part of human nature to default to family—tribe—nation, in that order.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
This is a huge concern of mine. How can we find the resources to take care of more people if we can’t take care of the ones we already have? There is a lot of social inequality in the U.S., and I think that illegal immigration places an especially heavy burden on poor black Americans, who are already marginalized. It also creates a lot of racial hostility between blacks and Mexicans, because they perceive their job security is being threatened.
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Another point that is not brough up enough. There’s a black activist in LA, I think, Ted something, how has been trying to get the hispanic leaders to meet with him to address the issue. He’s having a very difficult time. But you are so right. Not only do illegals come and take jobs that would go to our own underclass, bu they lower wages for a big swath of the population, too. Long term there is another problem: we are training american companies to operate with these lower costs. I have a recurring argument with my brother’s friend who runs a nation-wide construction company. He says that he MUST be able to hire these illegals because otherwise he can’t compete. But when I suggest that if everyon’s cost goes up the same percent due to the increase in labior costs, then everyone is still in the exact same competitive (relative) position.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
So yes, I clearly have a dilemma here, in that I believe working in the trenches, in this case, is tantamount to placing a band-aid on a broader social issue–treating the symptom, not the cause. But people have individual merit to me, and I personally cannot deny the individual on this basis.
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There are many legal immigrants that need help. And I’m sure not all of them are getting it. But if you would like to live in Mexico, it sound like the people there could really use your help and would be fortunate to have you.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
So I don’t know what I’m going to do. I am both an academic and a humanitarian, and I’m in a clear conflict of interest. I just wanted you to know, it’s always on my mind. It haunts me.
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I t sound like that at the end of the day you are helping people that really need it. So I thiink you have earned the right to a sound sleep.
Olive, sorry it took me so long to respond, but I didn’t have a block of time that I wanted to spend on a reply. I really enjoyed your post.