Look, it’s possible to think the House Bill is bad and to disagree with some of the demands of the immigrant protests. Watch out for those false dichotomies.
Did I say anything about why they were protesting? I’m talking about how they’re protesting. I’m telling them they are scerwing up the message they are trying to get accros, not Pitting them for the protest itself.
Frankly, though, the draconian measures in the House bill don’t stand a chance of making it thru the Senate. But it should be noted that at least some of the groups are advocating full amnesty for virtually all illegal aliens in the US, which goes a lot futher than simply protesting the House bill. “Immediate legalization without condition” is certainly not a goal that most Americans will support. If you want to get into a debate about the “what” that is being protested, let’s not pretend that all they want is for the House bill to be killed.
Come on, Miller, you’re smarter than that. Are those guys trying to get a political message across? No, they’re just having an ethnic pride day. This protest is a different thing altogether.
But here’s an idea. Go ahead and fly your ethnic flags, but make sure we see lots of different flags (not just a sea of Mexican flags) and make sure the American flag is flying higher and more prominately. That gest the immigration message across fine, too.
Lets not pretend that all protesters have not learn the lesson of demanding a lot when in reality they are expecting less, you can not get more American than that. In other words, drop the condescension.
It doesn’t really bother me, but again, if I was one of the protest organizers, I’d advise against it. There’s two things you have to keep in mind here: What message are you trying to get across, and what is the best way to get that message across. If you want to petition for American citizenship, or even just more humane immigration laws, why not do so in the language of the country you’re petitioning. Yes, Spanish is widely spoken in the US and is even an official language in a few states. But this is a federal proposition, and the language of the US government is English.
You know, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in your first post, but now you’re just pissing me off. There wasn’t anything condescending in that post. Go fuck yourself, and quit mischaracterizing my posts.
You deny the possibility that many protesters already know it is impossible to get all what they demand, not all protesters (including me) are picturing a complete amnesty, I am not willing to shut up others when history has shown that you indeed have to demand a lot to gain a little.
There are some of these protestors who want nothing but to become part of the American fabric. There are others who are more extreme, and want to reclaim California, Arizona, etc and make it Mexican, if not part of Mexico proper. What I don’t understand is why you would tell those people to be dishonest and hide their true sentiments? Do you think they are not important to the discussion? Do you think that what a group’s goals are are immaterial to the question of mass “amnesty” or immigration reform in general?
While we are on different sides of the issue, I’m surprised that you would advocate people lying to the country in order to sway national imigration policy. Would it be okay with you if vast numbers of people did this, got “amnesty”, then afterwards pursued a seperatist agenda. Even assuming the percentage of people with such desires is small, wouldn’t you want the people (Americans) who are considering changing our laws to be aware of their true sentiments?
Why do these millions of mexican immigrants want to turn California in their Mexico? Why didn’t they turn Mexico into their Mexico?
Do they really want to turn California into the place that they just fought so hard to leave?
A key part of that process is appearing rational, sane, and logical with your message. If you just piss people off, it will backfire and the effects can be quite long-lasting. It works out well for the opposition but proves counterproductive for any moderates. One of the key symptoms of lunacy is the inability to see it in others.
But they’re not demanding that you sing it in Spanish. THEY want to. I think it’s nice - it’s an expression of they fact that, though they speak Spanish, they are American and want to express their Americanness in their own way.
Mace, you’re right on. Thanks for the OP. During college and post- I was pissed off about the Jimi Hendrix version of the Star Spangled Banner, but I got used to it. I don’t think I’ll ever get used to this new Anthem.
You might dig this, I don’t know. Have you ever considered Guadalupe Hidalgo/Gadsden and all the people displaced or “resettled” by the sale of 500,000 square miles of the American Southwest, how this chunk of the US – California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and parts of Arizona, Wyoming and Colorado – is a supposed birthright for countless people from the other side of the fence?
Totally bakes my brain to think I’m an unwitting invader living on the fringes of Aztlán. Further, what chance does my little farm have if all my competitors use migrant labor?
Well, that’s my whole point here. I don’t believe for a minute that they want to turn the US into Mexico. I think these folks are potentially some of the best citizens we could have. Immigrants coming here for a better life are usually the biggest fans of America that you’ll find. I just don’t understand why they aren’t doing a few very simple things to make sure that message gets across crystal clear. Most Americans are only go see a few images and get a few soundbites, and “Boycott America” has got to be one of the dumbest slogans I’ve heard in a long time.
John Mace, what you said was “But why not send a positive rather than a negative message? Lo siento, mis amigos, pero no entiendo.”
Not mentioning the background that is causing all this is ignoring the ones that needed to have a better PR agent: the troglodytes Republicans and the few Democrats that voted for that in the House, sorry if it pisses you off that I think it is very important to mention these protests are not happening in a vacuum.
When the responsible parties in the House are not being taken to task that is convincing many in the Hispanic community to attempt to demand respect. Any incentive to shut up very radical elements in our groups is blunted when a radical element in power already proposed to make laws to criminalize some of those groups even more than before and to criminalize other groups that are not illegal to begin with.
In the end, all what extremists Hispanics are demanding will not be approved, but more reasonable items will have backing from the majority of Hispanic groups, I can not ignore that parts of the draconian plan of the House plan will remain once and if the Senate plan goes through. Being quiet is never the best way to make items you think are wrong go away when laws are considered.
Miller: there are indeed very wild loony groups (Aztlan) that propose to separate the states that the USA got after the war with Mexico, it is important to remember that the vast majority of Latinos think they smoke too much peyote.
I remember reading that in the 19th century, some Americans also said that all those showing Irish symbols and flags in protests against unfair labor treatment were protesting a different thing altogether.
Thing is, I see that applies to people like Tancredo in the House that voted for that irrational, insane and illogical plan, You bet it has pissed people off. But I do see the irrationality in people like the Aztlan group, and in the past I have ranted against them. For groups that demand amnesty, not so much.
I think the problem he as (and I do have it too) is that in your post you implied that their goals are important to the discussion. The reality is that the group’s goals are indeed immaterial considering what the more serious and bigger Hispanic groups goals are.