The problem with the vaccines is that the T-cell response is not long lasting. It is with natural immunity. That’s why you are in a much better position to handle future variants with NI than with a vax.
I know right? Vaccine mandates will likely require boosters. What is a booster for natural immunity? Make them work in a covid ward, get them infected, then transfer them to an airplane hanger to quarantine?
You know why this argument isn’t happening in Europe? Because everyone is getting fucking vaccinated AND boosted whether or not they have natural immunity. Portugal has a > 90% vaccination rate with nearly twice as many people getting boosters as US and rising. They already have a lot of people with natural immunity but that’s not stopping them from doing the right thing. And here’s some science for you. It’s WORKING. They have not been in lockdown and cases have been rising fast. BUT ICU patients and deaths have not been rising like they are in the US and the average age for Portugal is 46 years old. Look at Denmark. Same thing.
Nothing that you have offered thus far supports that position.
I can keep posting studies:
"…the authors concluded that long-term “SARS-CoV-2-specific T cell memory is successfully maintained regardless of the severity of COVID-19.”
“…A recent study detected SARS-CoV-1-specific T cell responses 17 years after infection”
And unlike vaccines, with these long-term antibodies and T-cell responses from NI you won’t need a “booster” reinfection.
I see that. That, however, isn’t the problem.
it is difficult to define the level of humoral and cellular immunity able to protect against infection or disease
What you are offering is tantamount to recognizing that there is a cereal box in your pantry that says “Shredded Wheat” on it, but not realizing that the box may be empty.
A “placeholder” (memory cell to a particular variant of a particular virus) may have good longevity but may offer absolutely no protection against disease.
The studies you’ve posted have also shown that this “NI” is not present in even every member of even the small sample studies they’ve published.
Again, that isn’t supported by anything you’ve offered here.
Cite? Vaccines produce a T-cell response. There are several good studies that demonstrate that, especially with boosters. Why wouldn’t it be long-lasting?
if the virus mutates, you will want one. Surely you’ve noticed the vast number of people being reinfected with omicron after previous infection with another strain.
And COVID KILLS.
Compared to the number of deaths directly attributed to COVD, the number of deaths attributed to the vaccine are statistically negligible
Mild reinfections are not anything to be all that concerned about. As posted above, a study of 265,779 with natural immunity found ZERO deaths and only 4 severe cases out of 1,339 reinfections.
Are you able to say with certainty whether, and how many, those people infected, and what their outcomes were ?
I know I’m wasting my time here, but the data for that study was pre-Delta and pre-Omicron, wasn’t it?
And, as a budding scientist, who only wants the best for humanity, I’m sure you’ll agree that since prior infection plus vaccination is better than just prior infection, we shouldn’t carve out prior infection as an excuse not to get vaccinated, right? Or, do you dispute that vaccine plus prior infection is better than prior infection alone?
It’s only a marginal amount. Looks like statistical noise to me. I’d rather wait until the safety trials are complete in 2023.
No one has said illness-based immunity doesn’t exist. No one is going out and lying about it, nor are they trying to cover it up. The science is there, and you can read it, easily.
We all acknowledge that getting COVID-19 means you get some level of immunity. The question is whether that should be a valid reason to let someone not get one or more shots. What are the benefits of that approach, and what are the drawbacks?
That’s a policy question, and completely different thing that the science. So far, there has been a whole lot of arguments for downsides, and little if any for upsides. In order to argue for a change in policy, one must argue why the outcome of said policy would be better. And no one seems able to do that.
There is a large cost here. The current infrastructure you are talking about only handles a handful of cases, brought on for medical reasons. It’s not ready to handle over 30% of the populace. It took time and money to get the current vaccine situation up and running, and it would take similar time and money to set this up.
The only upside seems to be for people who can’t take off from work, because they’re too poor. But that’s a reason to pay them, not a reason to let them off the hook. Those with a low socioeconomic status are at highest risk of infection, which puts others at risk, making them the ones we should be trying our best get the highest immunity.
Your other argument is about people who “feel like crap” after vaccination and don’t want to get boosted. But that I can’t see as a sufficient reason not to get boosted. A lot of people feel like crap. It would need to be much more severe than “crappy” for that seem like a valid argument. I don’t see how it benefits society for those people to not continue to try and incentivize such people to get the vaccine.
Finally, I do not get your use of the shrugging emoji. What are you intending to convey? My experience with it in online discussions is that it is usually flippant, but I assume that is not your intent. I would normally just ignore it, but you’ve ended at least three posts with it so far, so it seems like there is some meaning I am not getting.
Emojipedia says it is used “to indicate a lack of knowledge about a particular topic, or a lack of care about the result of a situation.” But neither seem to fit what you are saying.
All I know is the outcomes shown in the study. We have no way of knowing if those reinfections came from vaccinated or unvaccinated.
And having COVID triggered antibodies is part of that statistic.
Where are you getting this from?
“…Vaccination in the COVID-recovered may provide some incremental protective benefit, but the total size of this benefit is marginal”
“…unvaccinated COVID-recovered individuals should be considered to have at least equal protection to their vaccinated COVID-naïve counterparts.”
So … since I already clarified for you that infection-conferred immunity also has a sell-by date … how do you plan to renew your immunity when yours wanes ?
COVID party ?
From the CDC…
MYTH: The natural immunity I get from being sick with COVID-19 is better than the immunity I get from COVID-19 vaccination.
FACT: Getting a COVID-19 vaccination is a safer and more dependable way to build immunity to COVID-19 than getting sick with COVID-19.
COVID-19 vaccination causes a more predictable immune response than infection with the virus that causes COVID-19. Getting a COVID-19 vaccine gives most people a high level of protection against COVID-19 and can provide added protection for people who already had COVID-19. One study showed that, for people who already had COVID-19, those who do not get vaccinated after their recovery are more than 2 times as likely to get COVID-19 again than those who get fully vaccinated after their recovery.
All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19. Getting sick with COVID-19 can offer some protection from future illness, sometimes called “natural immunity,” but the level of protection people get from having COVID-19 may vary depending on how mild or severe their illness was, the time since their infection, and their age.
Getting a COVID-19 vaccination is also a safer way to build protection than getting sick with COVID-19. COVID-19 vaccination helps protect you by creating an antibody response without you having to experience sickness. Getting vaccinated yourself may also protect people around you, particularly people at increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19. Getting sick with COVID-19 can cause severe illness or death, and we can’t reliably predict who will have mild or severe illness. If you get sick, you can spread COVID-19 to others. You can also continue to have long-term health issues after COVID-19 infection.
Learn about why you should get vaccinated even if you already had COVID-19.