One last thing, lets not forget that there is no need to rely on tricks that are not effective. There is a plethora of techniques and self defense implements that do work, and guarenteed if somebody is successfully using an ineffective technique then they could have been using an effective one (for example, going for a rake, when they could have used a under the chin palm w/ gouge). And that is the problem with perpetuating a myth. If somebody buys into the myth then they feel safe, and will not pursue those things that actually will work. This is very dangerous to the lives of those people who are seeking self protection.
And with that I am off to keep the streets safe and sound for you folks.
Assuming the person knows what to DO empty handed. For someone who’s done some martial arts training and knows how to use their hands, that’s great, but for someone who doesn’t (which is what I figured the target “group” was in this whole thing…the people that carry pepper spray and guns), going empty handed with no experience against someone with a knife is crazy. You’d rather try to step in and grab someone’s quickly moving/rotating knife hand than smack at them from a few feet away with the point on your umbrella? I don’t know where you’re getting this “they’re proven myths” stuff, but really…
Violent criminals, sure. But Joe “I just got my “piece”, I’m going to go grab a couple bucks off that weak looking old guy over there” Robber isn’t coming at you with the goal to kill you. He just wants your wallet and the weapon is there to make you too afraid to try anything (hell, if he’s going to kill you anyway, why not just walk up and shoot you in the back, then take your wallet? Stealing a wallet is one thing, killing someone is quite another, especially involving the police).
That’s because you haven’t had a key jammed in you before (I’m assuming), let alone in your neck. If you step in and suddenly find someone ramming the points of it into your soft flesh, you’re GOING to at least hesitate the next time. It won’t kill you, but it’ll stop you for a second. What you said sounds like the people who think they can block a baseball bat coming at them.
Probably not, but then they’ve got their guard down until they’re close enough for you to jam it in their eye or somewhere else.
The average mugger is going to want to take your money and get out of there. But maybe you often turn around to find people coming at you trying to kill you for whatever few bucks you have in your wallet, I don’t know, heh.
You seem to be under the impression that unless something has the edge of a knife blade, it’s not going to cut no matter how hard you slash/stab with it…A fork technically has dulled down “points” on it. You’re saying you’d rush someone who’s ready to jam a fork in your thigh?
Again, if you’re being attacked by some sort of Terminator, no, it’s not going to do you any good (nor would and hand technique except something to the eyes which you could do with a key or whatever too), but that doesn’t happen as often as someone just “threatening” with a weapon. Don’t forget, you’re having your life threatened and you’re going to have adrenalyn going as well (maybe even moreso because if YOU lose the fight, you’re dead).
I really don’t know how you’re imagining holding the thing, but if you brace it against your palm, keep your fist TIGHT, and strike with the points (not slashing with the edge of it, but using the points and hitting…like how you would hit a nail on the top of the head, not the side of it because on the side it’ll bend), it won’t move at all. Toss a pillow or something in the air and try it.
Woah, okay, I think I know what you’re picturing now. You wouldn’t brace it in the splits between your fingers (resting against your knuckle so it’s horizontal like your forearm)…that’s crazy and it WILL jam into you. Make a fist, put your thumb on the side of the fingers (like a paw, not a traditional thumb across the fingers fist), place your hand palm-side down on a table, then pull it up about an inch, and imagine the keys going from the table up through between your fingers and resting on the upper part of the palm. That’s what I’m talking about…If you hold that tightly (and press against the back of the key at the same time you jam it, while keeping everything TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT, you might feel a little pain, but not much, and definately not as much as stopping a knife with your bare hand).
And if you punch at someone with a limp wrist, you’re going to break your hand too. That’s why I stress that you keep it tight, tensed up…I can ram my fist against my other arm as hard as I want, and as long as it’s tensed, it’s not going to move.
It’s the same as a punch, but you have metal prongs sticking out. If you miss with a punch, that’s just as ineffective as missing with keys. If you hit with a key as hard as you would with a punch, you’re going to hurt a lot more because the striking area is so much smaller than a big fat fist.
So does a hand if you’re just slapping the person. If you use it like you would use a punch, with a quick tensing motion as you reach the end of the strike, it’s going to do a lot of damage.
I wasn’t aware your flesh covered fingers were stronger than METAL. If I jab you with a saftey pin, yeah, it’s not going to kill you, but you’re not going to ignore it because it’s going to hurt like hell.
Rake the neck, strike the face. It’s common sense. You wouldn’t try to kick them in the head if you don’t have the opening and skill to do so. You wouldn’t just flail your arms around wildly, heh.
Again, if you have fingers that are sharper/stronger than metal, then this won’t apply, but I for one would rather his someone on the head with two metal prongs (again, the surface area deal) and scrape a few layers of flesh off (and it CAN be done with “dull” objects…ever scrape your arm against the corner or a table/desk/counter, etc.? If you’re moving fast enough into it, it’s going to happen) than break my knuckles on the bone of the forehead.
If you don’t tense your fist, then yes, you will. Just like you’ll break your wrist if you try to smash through a cement block with a limp wrist.
Why? If your tensed up and you smack with the keys on their forehead, then again with your upper knuckles, hey, even better. Two shots in one. Then you run like hell while they check their forehead to see the blood you draw from the cuts.
Again, if your fingers are made of metal, hey, I totally agree with you. Try to claw your fingers at a chunk of wood, then try jamming keys/pens/forks/nails/etc. in it.
Like an empty hand does…You’re aware you CAN drop the key, right? All you have to do is open your hand to scoop away an attack just like you would do if you were using a normal fist, and the key will fall out. Common sense again, and at this point you’ve at least drawn some blood.
I’m sorry, but I just can’t agree with you. That’s like saying that a baseball player should fight someone empty-handed rather than using a baseball bat. If you know how to use your weapon, you make it deadly. A gun is just a chunk of metal…if you have no aim and you’ve never shot one, it’s not a big threat. If you can shoot moving targets from 100 feet away, it becomes one. If you try smacking someone out of the blue with a key, you’ll likely get hurt. If you take some time and practice combinations and such with it, you’re going to hurt them. This “it doesn’t matter what you do, empty-hand is the best!” line of thought is a load of bull, heh…If you’re against someone who’s got a knife and you see a 6’ staff laying next to you, and try to take them out with your hands, you’re going to get worked because you think “it’ll just leave a scratch, not like my invincible fingertips”.
Of course, if you just swing your staff around above your head like you’re dancing, it’s not going to do you any good at all…just like if you swing your limp hands around without knowing what you’re doing.
Tsugumo (who’s got way too much time on his hands, heh)
I have very little time. I will reply in full later. However, to suggest that I am proposing “empty hands is better than a weapon” is laughable. You might consider looking up some of the older threads I have participated in. What I am suggesting is that you should always use what is most effective for what is available, and you should certainly not rely on some mythological self defense trick.
I noticed that I forgot to post my second reality check. It is pretty simple.
Do violent criminals use this device or anything similar? Answer no. Violent criminals have no use for keys between the fingers even if they have a set of keys and determine to fight empty handed. Why? Because the collective experience of street fighting understands that it is useless.
Do police use this device or anything? Answer no. For similar reasons above.
When searching for useful self protection one should look to what criminals and police officers use because such tools are tried and true methods of fighting.
One last thing for tonight.
Recommended reading.
“Inside the Criminal Mind” by Stanton Samenow
“Real Fighting” by Peyton Quinn
“Stressfire” by Massad Ayoob
“Survey of Felons” by Aldine de Gruyter (hope I got that right)
“The Truth About Self Protection” by Massad Ayoob
“Strong on Defense” by Sanford Strong
Especially the ones with stars.
With respect to you, I think you need to learn something about the criminal mindset and real criminals. Again, I will reply in greater depth, but your post is filled with a lot of myths that people (especially martial artists) think they know about criminals. Clearly, you’re a knowledgable guy (although wrong ;)) and if you add this knowledge to your training I think you’ll learn a lot.
It only takes one level-headed private citizen with a handgun to stop, or drop, another citizen on a rampage. Just think–if even one person on the LIRR had had a handgun, Colin Ferguson might have wrought a lot less damage.
“And the reality is that a person is better off defending themselves empty handed then decreasing their effectiveness by trying to use one of these things as a tool of self defense.”
That seems to be what this says. Whether you meant it that way or not, I can’t help it if I can’t read your mind.
I may have some free time, but I don’t have enough free time to read 1250 posts to reply to you a few times, heh.
And if you have a sharp object in your pocket (let’s say it’s a pen), and when you reach in to pull out your wallet (so it looks like you intend to play along), then whip out the pen and stab the person, how is that not an effective weapon? Sure, you could try to reach in and smack them in the face with your hand, but at most that’ll stun them for a few seconds (just as jamming a pen in their shoulder would). It seems like you have this standard of what constitutes a “weapon”. Anything should be a weapon. If you go into a fight and think “all I can use are my hands because even though I could go pick up that stick over there, that’s taking a risk of being hit while I do so” ignoring the fact that moving in empty handed is also taking a risk.
I can’t say I’ve heard of many “unarmed” muggings aside from “Gimme your lunch money or I’ll beat you up!” If someone’s going to rob you they’re going to have some sort of weapon (unless they’re abnormally huge). They don’t use a set of keys because they have guns/knives/etc. that while they’re illegal to be carrying around, they don’t care because they’re criminals. We’re talking about defending yourself while trying to abide by the law (otherwise we can just skip this discussion and tell everyone to carry a gun).
Of course not. They’re allowed to carry guns and such. Again, we’re talking about someone who’s wanting to defend themself without running around with a gun.
And are illegal for “innocent” citizens to be using, is my point, heh.
I’ve spent a large portion of my life studying people/behavior, not out of textbooks but in real life (after riding city buses day in and day out for a good 8 years and coming across all sorts of different types of people, you learn a lot about how people work) which is why I don’t disagree that if you’re being attacked by someone who’s intent on killing you, you’re pretty much screwed…But Joe Thug wants the $50 out of your wallet without having the police trying to find him because he murders you. Otherwise, why not just walk up and shoot you in the back, then take your money? It’s much safer for the criminal.
Heh, I’m not going to say you don’t know what you’re talking about because I get the general feeling that you’re either a cop or you’ve been a cop in the past, but to return a personal analysis, a lot of your comments sound like the “This martial art is the best, everyone should use it as it’s the only way to go! What’s that? That technique is different, it’s no good no matter who uses it!” type, which is pretty close-minded. If you have objects in your pocket, and you learn how to use them, you’re better rounded for a fight. It’s like how some people will say “High kicks are the best!” and run around kicking at everyone, until someone drops them on the ground and they realize maybe they should have tried learning a bit about grappling.
Again, I’m not saying you don’t know what you’re talking about, but you sound way too overconfident in your empty hand skills when you won’t even conceive of training with different “unusual” weapons. Just because you can’t use something as a weapon yourself, doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
I went and read some of your previous posts (of course, I did so after posting the last message, which is now resulting in post after post from me in here, heh…I ramble a lot). I wasn’t aware I was debating with “The SDMB Martial Arts Guy”.
I agree with you on a lot of what you say in them. I just don’t agree with parts of it, and I don’t think it’s right to say “only these techniques WILL work, don’t bother trying out other things, just trust me on this”. Maybe certain techniques do work for you, and for other people you know, but while an expert TKDist might be able to pull off a lightning fast hook kick and claim that’s the only way to go about a fight, other people probably won’t be able to and should learn to use other ways.
I’m also aware that you probably think I’m one of the hot-headed “belt factory” guys (after all, I spent 6 years doing TKD which as everyone knows means your ego is multiplied thousands of times, oyy), which is a fair guess from the few posts I’ve done, but I’m not. The training I do with other things (weapons and such) is stuff I’ve taught myself from studying on my own and seeing what works/doesn’t work. I’ve read up a lot on other arts and DO know (a bit) what I’m talking about, heh. Despite doing TKD, I DO know the difference between a sparring match wearing a bunch of foam gear and an anything-goes street fight.
Anyway, you don’t have to go point for point with that super long post above if you don’t want (as I have a general idea of what you’ll probably say about it and it might just be sucking away hours of your life), but I just don’t agree with you on it, heh.
Just thought I’d ramble a little more, heh…Can’t get in trouble here for posting too much, can you?
Tsugumo (who also groans whenever he sees that little old lady on the commercial punch weakly at the camera and say “Now I’m confident that if I get into a situation, I can handle myself”, sigh…)
First thing first, to be honest, I didn’t think you were a hot head black belt factory guy. You could explain your reasoning far to well for that. Black belt factory guys can only “Sensei said so”. I hope I did not give off the impression that I thought that lowly of you. My apologies if so.
Unfortunately, martial arts and self protection do not lend themselves to being taught/explained in this medium. What I can demonstrate in 5 minutes so that somebody will understand, can be literally impossible to explain in pure words. That is why I try to give an as technical explanation as possible, and point people towards various courses or books as applicable. In fact, I would rather that somebody didn’t take my word for it and went out and studied some of the stuff I talk about because they will learn 100x more stuff from that they listening and accepting what I say.
Respectfully, do you? I know lots of people who think they do, but invariably the source of their knowledge is as flawed as their own. We all know about Sensei Bob who despite never being in a street fight in his life can somehow magically teach people how to survive a street fight.
Speaking for myself, it was truly a shock for me to experience the difference between being in the dojo and being on the street, and this was after I realized I didn’t know anything about and started learning about it to the point where I thought I knew what I was talking about.
The sad reality is that the common knowledge of the street criminal is abyssmal. I don’t really know who is to blame (although police defense seminars for civilians certainly contribute their fair share of crap year after year, I am VERY sorry to say).
I think you’re right. I am not going to go point for point. But I will reply to a few things.
Only if taken out of context. What I am saying is that there are certain self defense gimmicks or tricks that decrease your effectiveness. I believe that people should arm themselves with the most effective self defense tools allowable by law, and that they can responsibly use and learn. And some things are less effective than bare hands. For example, a rolled up magazine. Whoever came up with that should have 100 rolled up magazines shoved up his ***.
It is here, that in my opinion, lies the greatest flaw in your reasoning, which is why I recommended those books on criminal behaviour. This does not describe the average criminal.
In fact, although crime rates are dropping, criminals themselves are becoming more brutal and violent (there is simply less of them on the street). Most criminals are recividists (80 to 90% depending on the study you read). Meaning when you face off against a criminal, he has done this before.
When speaking about self protection, you can never assume what the criminal will do. If a reasonable avenue of escape exists you should take it (preferablly if it is a mugger leaving you wallet/purse behind), because if the criminal has violent intent for you you don’t want to be there to find out about it, and if he doesn’t fleeing is almost never going to cause him to become violent (one of those myths again, that running away will make him agree and want to get you).
If no avenue of escape exists you have three choices. 1) Do nothing and hope that this particular criminal has not predetermined to hurt you (increasingly less likely). 2) Fight because we don’t know if he intends to hurt us or not. 3) Become a mind reader and probe his thoughts to see if he intends to hurt you or not, and take action only if he is planning on hurting you.
Since 3 is not likely to be an option for most of us, the reality is that we cannot know (barring a few signs of violent intent. read “Gift of Fear” by Gavin deBecker as a good starting book on that subject) what the criminal has in store for us, and since fighting only results in a 2% increase in minor injury as far as I am concerned you may as well fight. The good news is this is pretty much a win/win for you. If he wasn’t planning on hurting you, then you are now the aggressor which gives you a tremendous edge (he is not forced to adopt the defensive mindset, which he is unlikely prepared to do, and hence he will likely lose), or if he was planning on hurting you then you have preempted that and given yourself a chance to avoid it.
Your description of using a key as a weapon is what, in my opinion, would be nice to have happen. And without trying it on the street, it sounds like something that even could happen, or even likely to happen. It is kind of like chemical sprays. You would think they would work great, but they don’t, not in the real world because, as above, they take too long to take effect for what a civilian is going to use them for.
As for myself, I have, oddly enough, never been hit with a key, although I have been hit with all sorts of other things. The surprising thing is who little some them actually hurt.
However, I did have the dupious honor once of picking up a suspect who attacked a women who key him. She hit him three times. Once in the face, once on the neck, one on the shoulder. The shoulder blow made about a 1/2" cut on his shirt. No damage to him. The cut on his neck was bleeding slightly. About 2" long. The scratch on his face was extremely superficial and although it was aimed towards his eye, it looks to me like what happened was the shot of the blow caused his face to roll and so the blow never made it further than the corner of the eye socket. Now, I can’t help but think that this lady reacted quickly enough to get the keys into her hand, and stike three times successfully at her assailant. Had those strikes been something more effective (hammer fist to the nose, palm strike with follow up eye gouge) maybe she could have actually won. Of course, without a time machine who knows, but trying to use the keys availed her nothing. They guy wasn’t even slowed down by he own admission (sadly, she learnt this from a police seminar, its enough to make me sick).
As for pens. I had a guy try to stab me a pen. Full force towards my body, he hit my arm and the pen split in two on my jacket.
Again, what seems like it might be a good idea, isn’t always the reality in a street fight. With 15-30 seconds to act there is no time to roll the dice and hope that this is the time that a pen will be useful. IMO, you need to go with te most effective self protection technique (speed, power, explosiveness) you can.
Going semi-point by point because it helps me keep my thoughts organized. Attempting to keep it simple though, because these are taking forever to write, heh.
Only slightly, but then I figure you (having taught martial arts and all) run into a LOT of people like that and I just wanted to keep from being piled into the “moron” category right off the bat, heh…I’ve met people like that too, and they come to learn for a month (and show us how they know Jeet Kune Do because they read Bruce Lee’s book), then disappear.
I like to think so, though there’s no real way to prove it (we could do a “how many fights have YOU been in” comparison but I can pretty much guarantee you’ve been in many more serious situations than I have (I’m still young and stupid, I have many more mistakes to make before I can call myself wise, heh)). But I DO know that you don’t walk out of a street fight unscathed, especially if it involves weapons. In a real fight, everyone gets hurt…the “winner” is the one who isn’t paralyzed for life or dead when it’s all over.
It’s just that if I’m going to get injured in a fight, I’d like it to be because I tried using a weapon against my opponent and messed up, rather than trying to get control of their knife and ending up with a nice tight grip on the blade end of it.
Oyy, I’m with you on that. I was a cocky greenbelt with my “awesome TKD” and a non-martial artist friend said we should go the gym and spar a bit for fun. I agreed and got ready to show him my fancy moves…First thing he did is charge head first at me out of the blue and tackle me flat. Talk about an eye opener. No one in a sparring match does something that kamikaze, so I was in the middle of thinking “He’s not really charging at me head first like that, is he?” when I hit the ground. And we were just horsing around.
All I can go by is what I see people doing in normal life and put the “What would I do?” logic into it, so I can’t honestly say I completely understand the criminal mind or anything, but I go by my experience…and maybe I DO have a lot to learn…or maybe I just live in a peaceful city.
I completely agree on this…But I was looking at the question from an “I don’t have mace or a “just under the limit” sized knife in my pocket at all times” perspective. If the law allowed it, I’d say carry an entire arsenal…SOMETHING is bound to work, heh.
Absolutely, heh. I’ve never even heard this one, it sounds so ludicrus (probably like keys sound to you), but hey, maybe someone’s started a magazine-fu, heh…I wouldn’t reccommend someone walk around with a magazine when they know they’re likely going to get into a fight though, obviously.
Umbrellas, I don’t get though. I mean, an umbrella isn’t a lot unlike a Kali stick (or Arnis, whatever, heh…my TKD instructor got a Kali guy in for a few weeks to teach us some basics of stickfighting, which was a load of fun but brutal on the hands…blister city), so I can see it functioning to knock at a hand with a knife coming at you (rather than using your own flesh). I’m not saying it’s the ultimate weapon or anything, but I say if it looks like a stick, use it like one, heh.
Maybe, but I’m going by what I would do. I mean, if I’m going to rob someone of their puny wallet money, and they look like they know how to fight and are prepared to do so, I’d rather just run away and find a little old lady to rob instead…Much less hassle, much less risk, much better chance of getting the money. Of course, if you’re on drugs or something you’re probably not thinking that clearly, so I can see your point.
All for that. Which is why I figure if you can toss your wallet at their head and make them at least instinctively blink and swing an arm at it, that might be the few seconds head start you need to get the hell out of there, heh. Sure, you’ve lost your money, but at least you have your life. Or carry a pocket full of sand or something, heh…If you pull out pepper spray, for god’s sake don’t hesitate and wave it around in front of him threatening him. Use the damn stuff before the guy realizes what it is and then get out of there (and if you want to be comical, while you’re running, keep spraying it over your shoulder behind you, heheh…should make for an amusing sight for onlookers if he tries to follow).
Granted (I read the earlier posts about someone charging through the spray with a red marker and leaving a ton of red slashes despite the spray). I think the problem with sprays is that the person who pulls it out of their bag thinks it’s suddenly a bargaining piece that evens things up and go “Don’t move or I’ll spray you!” Now the guy knows what you have and if he wants to charge through it to kill you, he will…I think sprays are supposed to be whipped out and sprayed before anyone knows what’s going on. Again, I’m not saying it’s a fact that it’ll work if you do that (they can still charge you), but at least if you have some surprise on your side (and they’re not already charging at you…if they’re doing that, come up with something else).
This is the main problem I have with this reasoning. There are numerous stories of people who punch someone, hit the person’s forehead and break their own wrist/knuckles. Going by those accounts I could say “Well then punching doesn’t work, it’s useless.” That’s not fair though…Punching can work if you train and do it right. Similarily, while Bruce Lee can whip around a pair of nunchaku like lightning, Joe Average is probably going to knock himself out.
I guess my hangup is that from your first post that basically said “don’t try those other things, they’re all myths” is that I’d hate to see someone completely discard thinking about them because someone tells them “for a fact” that they don’t work. It’s like the short chubby guy who finds himself up against a wall remembers “the martial arts guy” at his office who does TKD and lectures on how kicking is the only way to go (after all, you’ll break your hand on the person’s forehead if you punch, right?), tries throwing a bunch of high kicks and ends up getting worked over because he disregarded using punches since someone with more experience in another area told him not to do it. While I’m sure that’s not what you intended by your post, without having read previous posts from you, that’s sort of how it sounds and it gives off the “my martial art is better than your martial art” impression.
I’d like to see a police force of martial artists…Yeah, we have technology and dogs and all, but it would be nice if the majority of the cops I saw were all in excellent physical condition and everything (I’m not ragging on out of shape cops, I have the utmost respect for police as you could never pay me enough to put my life on the line every day like that, and I’m not saying that they can’t take people down if they have to, but it would make me feel a bit more confident to know that a cop can chase a suspect on foot through backyards/alleys and stop them).
I watched a guy do a jump spinning hook kick on the bag for the first time, stop dead in the air when his foot connected, and drop solid on the ground. There’s a place for everything, and if you’re opponent is wearing armor, you don’t waste time shooting at him. If the pen had hit you in the base of your neck, you’d probably be breathing through it. Punches are pretty much useless in the winter because everyone’s got big poofy jackets on that soften everything (hell, most anything is useless in the winter except grappling…though ice would make that difficult as well). Damn winter, heh…
Or to hope that this time you don’t crack your hand on the guy’s forehead, or miss with that jump spinning hook kick, heh…
Anyway, fun to “spar theoretical” with you, and thanks for the welcome (I’m still trying to get used to seeing people reply with coherent and thought out posts rather than flames like so many other places on the net).
Mace doesn’t hurt anywhere near as much as people think it does, and it’s not very disabling. Most likely it will really make an attacker angry and more determined to bestow some serious retribution.
Tsugumo
While I have to agree primarily with Glitch on his responses in this thread, you brought up the problem that the muggers may be on drugs. I would think this more likely than not. In this situation, unless you are HIGHLY trained and can make a incapcitating damaging blow within the first 2 - 3 seconds, it is very likely the outcome will not be to the victim’s liking. And what about the 5’ lady vs King Kong?
Pepper spray and mace are also very ineffective against druggies…they just don’t notice. CS military tear gas is much more effective but difficult to find these days at least in the areas I frequent. Having spent a little time in the Navy as an SP and policing the bar areas taught me a few things: 1)It is better to know a few good techniques really well enough to use under high stress than a lot of flashy “Jackie Chan” moves like those that ended my black belt buddie in sick bay for 3 weeks ; 2) People are creative and will not do what you expect them to do; 3) Don’t fuck with SEALS ; 4) People who think they are prepared to deal with an assailant usually aren’t.
I carry a balisong. It’s not legal. I don’t care. But I do know how to use it and would under the right circumstances. However, I try to stay away from the “wrong” areas and if unsure, will carry an extra $20 in my pocket to throw on the ground and run like HELL to avoid testing reflexes. Glitch, your comments are on the money and I wish you well.
Since I have a somewhat checkered past, I can contribute a bit on the ‘criminal mindset’.
Before you rob someone, you size them up first, of course. You look for someone who looks like they will give up easy or who is already incapacitated (i.e. drunk). This is going to be true whether or not you have a weapon, your ideal scenario is that the person gives you what you want without any arguing.
When you pick a victim out, you approach them, watching them closely. If they look scared, it’s good. If they look scared and look like they are going for something in their pocket or purse, you probably don’t want to rob them. If they look calm and confident, and aren’t drunk, you probably don’t want to rob them, though you might ask them for a dollar or something to see if they give in easy.
Once you have decided to go through with it, you can either go fast or slow. If you are doing fast, you say what you want, you make your threat of violence, and either the person gives you the money or they resist. They probably are not going to resist if you are armed and they aren’t. If neither of you are, at this point you would try to beat them down and take what you are after. My only first-hand experience with robbery has been ‘rolling drunks’, jumping someone who is already incapacitated fast enough that they are disoriented and you don’t even have to really hurt them to get their wallet and run. Usually didn’t even say anything to the victim first in these cases.
Some robbers would drag out the process, i.e. asking for a dollar, being rude and standing in the way if they try to walk away, ignore you, or turn you down. Advantages to this are that often you don’t even have to make an actual threat, the person will realize this isn’t just a case of someone begging for money and that it might be best to give the person what they want so they can escape unharmed. Drawbacks are that if the person isn’t afraid enough of you, you will either have to threaten them or back down, and by this time the person knows you are robbing them and is prepared to fight you off.
I can see a lot of the defense techniques described here working. Most people who can get used to the idea of mugging someone have been in fights before. If you get punched in the head, unless it was a strong enough punch to stun or knock unconscious, you aren’t even really going to feel it at the time, just get worked up into that adrenal fighting state. If you get attacked in a way you are NOT used to, i.e. have your face gouged with a metal object, have capsicum sprayed in your eyes, or get zapped with a stun gun, you are going to be surprised. It’s possible for that to enrage someone enough to chase after the person who did it, if you can, but usually by the time the shock wears off you are going to realize you have created a disturbance and have hung around afterwards way too long, you’re hurt, and you want to get the hell out of there.
People talk about ‘the criminal mind’ like it’s different from everybody elses, but most think just like normal people. They see a way to get what they want, a means to get it, and their desire for your money outweighs any moral qualms about using intimidation or force to get it. They are going to be scared, and trying to build up courage to go through with it. They are probably trying to demonize you without even knowing you, give themselves an excuse to attack (i.e. he looks like a stuck-up asshole, or she doesn’t belong in this neighborhood, whatever). They are visualizing in their head everything going right to keep up this courage, when things don’t go according to plan, most criminals are going to give up on this one.
Badtz or Glitch, you two are probably the ones to ask this:
I was thinking more about the whole mugging and such and I was wondering about what if I’m going to give my money. Like it’s one of those days where I haven’t slept or something, I feel like total crap, slow and sluggish, I know there’s no way in hell I can fight, and I just don’t give a crap about the $50 in my wallet because I’m too tired/worn out to care about it. So here, if I’m approached and they want my money and I just want to give it to them and walk away unharmed, what’s the best way to go about this?
Like if I want to be able to give them my money and NOT get a “don’t try to follow me or call the cops” punch on the head or stab in the arm for good measure, you know? Similarily, if it was a little old lady who didn’t want trouble and just wanted to walk away unharmed, that kind of thing…What would you reccommend? I mean, in theory being polite or just handing it over should be okay but am I still going to get punched in the gut to knock the wind out of me or something too?
And what if I’ve only got $5 on me or something…Am I going to get killed because it pisses off the mugger that I don’t have enough money to make it worth targeting me? Like just out of the sheer “Well this was stupid! Why didn’t you have any more money, dammit?!” frustration?
My general rule, if people ask me for money (and I get a bad feeling…riding around on buses all the time this happens often. Sometimes it’s just someone who doesn’t have change for the bus fare, but I tend to err on the side of caution and assume that if I give them money they’re going to think I’ll give them more if they “ask”), is to just say something like “All I had was my bus fare and I just spent that to get here” or “If I had any money, I’d be eating right now…I haven’t eaten since yesterday” and try to sound like “hey, I’m on your side, I need money too”.
It’s worked for me a number of times (though I can’t say they were all going to try to rob me, but a few I’ve gotten a really bad feeling about), but I sort of blend in with the “that guy belongs to a gang or lives on the streets or something” crowd because I don’t dress up fancy or anything, so I can pull it off (I don’t do drugs or anything, but I’ve been asked many many times if I do and if I’ll sell them some…I just look creepy I guess, heh).
Anyway, I’m just wondering about some of this stuff since you guys have a wider view on this than I do…Plus I could use the knowledge to advise other people (who really shouldn’t try putting up a fight) if they ever ask.
Tsugumo, I am not ignoring you. I will reply in full to your posts tonight as I need to get to work. However, to make this post relevent take a look for a book called “Strong on Defense” by Sanford Strong (veteran police officer). He does a great job of talking about general purpose self defense tactics.
I’d also like to know what people’s opinions are on the matter of just giving muggers the money. I have studied knife fighting, etc. and now practice Muey Thai, but in my opinion, fuck, even if I’m carrying $500 cash I’d rather give it to the guy. I mean jeez, I got a job, I can make more- as long as I can make it to work. What happens if I fight this guy and get a maimed? In the end I’ll lose a heck of a lot more than $500. And normally, I carry a heck of a lot less than $100 in cash. I haven’t read any of the books that Glitch has recommended (English language books are hard to come by here- I should just do an Amazon and pay the import duties) so I don’t know what any of them say about doing what the attacker says to do (to a point).
I carry a knife (sometimes a cane) to defend my wife mainly- if WE get attacked, then I’m going for the throat. But if I can throw the money down and get us out of there, then fine. I don’t have any pride (but I’ll probably spend the next 6 months dreaming about what I could’ve done! ).
As for the key argument- no way! I took my sleeping pad, duct-taped it to a pole in the garage, put keys through my fingers and gave it a good whack- OWWW!!! I didn’t hit as hard as I could have and am thankful for that…the keys bent and twisted and cut into me. Nope, not gonna do that again. Tsugumo you do something like that and tell us the results, but don’t hit too hard :p. I believe that there are much better, much easier alternatives (Kobutan?). It seems to me that spending a few hours learning some empty hands self-defense techniques would help one out a lot more than keys ever would.
Tomcat, I agree with you. No amount of money, possessions, car, etc. is worth endangering your health over. Thug wants your wallet, give it to him. Wants your car, there you go. Get home safely and file an insurance report. I also agree with you that the equation is far different if you are accompanied by a loved one rather than alone.
One of my first instructors advocated carrying a few bills in a clip, and when asked for , throw it on the ground and run away. I guess the theory was you avoided making contact with the assailant as if you handed it over, and the assailant tracking and retrieving the from the ground would give you time to flee. I have no idea whether this would give a significant advantage in any significant perecentage of street encounters. Glitch?
I forgot to mention that when I travel to South Africa, I carry a $100 bill for ‘mugging money.’ Some people think I’m crazy, that I might lose it, but I figure, y’know, if it saves my life once…
Not having a lot of things around the house I want to attempt to puncture (heh), I tried using my bed before (the logic being that while the bed is soft and gives a bit, if you smack someone in the head, the head is going to give as well…unless they’re built like a tree and flexing their neck or something insane, in which case their head will probably explode anyway, heh) and managed to put several large rips easily through the sheets/foam (and skin is a lot easier to rip than material…I can rip up part of my arm just scratching it on the kitchen counter). Maybe I just have abnormally sharp keys or something, but I didn’t have a problem with it (which is why I’ve been saying it could work…if I mashed my hand trying it, I wouldn’t advise it at all, heh).
And I’m with you on the “throw some money and run” thing…Similar to something I heard for if someone’s trying to steal your car or whatever, take your keys and just toss 'em off to the side and run the other way. They have the car, and no reason to chase you, and if they’re smart they’ll want to get out of there quick and just go for the keys instead of your life. And you know your license plate number and all, so hey…
While I keep rambling about fighting back, if it was simply me, I would probably just give the money. I don’t really carry much anyway (and if I’m going somewhere where I have reason to be worried, then I’ll split my bills up and put a ten in each sock and stuff so if they take my wallet, I can still catch a cab and junk). But if they were threatening a loved one or something I’d probably give the key a shot, heh.
Tsugumo (now finding the ripped part of the bed uncomfortable to lay on…)
I hope I did not give off the impression that I thought that lowly of you. My apologies if so.
; 4) People who think they are prepared to deal with an assailant usually aren’t.